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#elixir-lang - 17 April 2019

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[06:03:53] mdbm_: when I call inspect on some value, it just seems to make it a string
[06:03:56] mdbm_: inspect 1
[06:04:03] mdbm_: inspect [1, 2]
[06:04:14] mdbm_: so what is it for? I don't get it
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[06:07:34] serafeim: gut morning
[06:10:11] Nicd-: mdbm_: inspect() returns the value in a human readable string
[06:10:34] mdbm_: Nicd-, ah thank you
[06:10:36] Nicd-: it's meant for debugging
[06:10:37] mdbm_: Serafeim, hello
[06:10:47] Nicd-: if you use IO.inspect(), it will print it directly
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[06:13:42] mdbm_: Nicd-, did you read the book Programming Elixir?
[06:13:48] mdbm_: Nicd-, there's this code: https://pastebin.com/raw/zXVqfibR
[06:14:00] mdbm_: Nicd-, I don't know why he returns [inspect(count)]
[06:14:08] mdbm_: why make it a list, and why call inspect
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[06:14:28] mdbm_: Nicd-, well maybe it's long to read for you, I have no idea
[06:14:45] Nicd-: is that an insult? :D
[06:15:10] mdbm_: Nicd-, no:D I mean I am really new to this language, I don't know if that code would be fast to read
[06:15:22] mdbm_: it's a countdown to the next minute
[06:15:23] Nicd-: I thought you meant the book
[06:15:34] Nicd-: "did you read the book?" "nope" "oh maybe it's too long for you"
[06:15:44] mdbm_: Nicd-, no I meant the pastebin haha
[06:15:55] serafeim: i think that the programming elixir book is considered very good. also the course by the same author (Dave Thomas: https://codestool.coding-gnome.com/courses/elixir-for-programmers) has been recommended for me in HN
[06:16:19] Nicd-: the indentation is all broken
[06:16:28] sevenseacat: it was okay. i thought elixir in action was much better
[06:16:32] mdbm_: Nicd-, I indented it myself :D
[06:16:51] Nicd-: you should use the builtin formatter
[06:17:11] serafeim: sevenseacat which is better for an experienced programmer ? (i'm highly experienced in java, python and a some lisp/scheme)
[06:17:14] mdbm_: Nicd-, actually it's the indentation form the book
[06:17:44] serafeim: i read the "Functional programming with Elixir" book but found it geared toward beginners
[06:17:50] Nicd-: I think they are using `inspect(count)` as a poor man's `Integer.to_string`
[06:18:07] Nicd-: to feed strings to the `say` function
[06:18:14] sevenseacat: yeah that one was introducing elixir as a first language
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[06:19:13] serafeim: hm i think it's closer to introducing functional programming using elixir as a vehicle
[06:19:26] sevenseacat: maybe. i might be thinking of something else
[06:19:41] mdbm_: Nicd-, but he makes a 'printer', which uses IO.puts, and then a 'speaker' which uses the say function. wth... isn't that redundant? why do IO.puts AND say
[06:19:51] serafeim: I don't like that approach very much; i don't think elixir is good for a first introduction to functional programming. better to start with scheme for me.
[06:20:13] Nicd-: mdbm_: did you read what the say function does?
[06:20:14] mdbm_: Serafeim, why do you think it's not a good introduction to fp?
[06:20:25] sevenseacat: scheme isn't exactly common and approachable, is it?
[06:20:34] mdbm_: Nicd-, execute some OS specific function?
[06:20:35] serafeim: for learning it is
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[06:20:50] sevenseacat: sure, but for applying to real world projects
[06:21:00] serafeim: mdbm_ because it is very easy you can learn it in 1-2 hours
[06:21:11] serafeim: and then you begin your functional journey
[06:21:11] sms: Feel like Haskell is a better starting point
[06:21:23] sevenseacat: oh god not haskell lol
[06:21:35] sms: I'm glad I started with it at least
[06:21:38] mdbm_: sevenseacat, why not
[06:21:42] serafeim: sms haskell is difficult *and* has a funny typing system
[06:21:42] sms: It was that much nicer abandoning it and coming to Elixir
[06:21:51] Nicd-: mdbm_: it runs ptts. I presume that is some sort of text-to-speech software
[06:21:53] sevenseacat: haskell is crazy difficult and hardcore
[06:22:04] sevenseacat: I mean, I have an intro to haskell book that is 1900 pages long
[06:22:09] sms: Yeah, it makes you appreciate this language more
[06:22:13] sms: Really?
[06:22:13] serafeim: Scheme doesn't have anything like that; you can even learn it it by reading it
[06:22:24] sms: The book I started with was only 700 pages
[06:22:28] serafeim: try the elephant book for example
[06:22:32] sevenseacat: http://haskellbook.com/
[06:22:47] serafeim: that's an excellent intro to FP (don't read the Y combinator chapters though)
[06:22:50] mdbm_: Nicd-, oh...I don't hear anything:D
[06:23:08] Nicd-: hehe, stuff like Haskell put me off from learning FP for a time :P
[06:23:09] mdbm_: Nicd-, I didn't know it was supposed to emit sound
[06:23:14] Nicd-: Elixir was approachable
[06:23:22] sms: sevenseacat: Oh wait, that is the book I used
[06:23:25] Nicd-: mdbm_: the book doesn't mention it?
[06:23:27] serafeim: also, concerning the approachibility of Scheme you can download Racket (which is well known) and use the Scheme dialect
[06:23:29] sms: Remembered it being shorter
[06:23:54] mdbm_: Nicd-, it says it speaks its argument... but I thought it was figurative to say print
[06:23:57] sevenseacat: I started reading it, and the very first concept it introduces is lamba calculus, i was like what
[06:24:01] sms: Nicd-: Yeah Haskell motivated me to pick up an easier functional language
[06:24:17] sms: sevenseacat: Yeah those Haskellers love their lamda calculus
[06:24:21] Nicd-: sms: Haskell motivated me to stay away from FP as I figured it was all like that
[06:24:44] sms: Nicd-: It's sort of a blowhard language isn't it
[06:24:48] serafeim: I never tried Haskell; it was offered in the "programming languages II" in the university but I avoided that course
[06:25:29] sms: What's the general consensus on OCaml
[06:25:44] sms: Been thinking of checking that out next, or F#
[06:25:51] Nicd-: it's like using C++ as first programming language as we did in university. when people get two screenfuls of compile errors for something simple, they get discouraged and think all languages are as unhelpful or unforgiving. many dropped out due to that. nowadays they use Python (wondering how that goes but it feels better to me)
[06:25:52] sms: F# probably better in a career sense
[06:26:07] serafeim: it is liked in HN; and Facebook's ReasonML is using OCaml
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[06:26:24] sms: Yeah but how is it to work with
[06:26:49] sms: I've heard it has pretty good libraries as well
[06:27:42] serafeim: no idea really... isn't there an #ocaml room ?
[06:28:08] sms: Of course there is
[06:28:18] sms: What do you think a room entirely dedicated to OCaml is going to say about it
[06:28:27] serafeim: ha ha ha ha ha ha
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[06:47:24] serafeim: are you using some IDE to write elixir ? do you believe that vim would be fine ?
[07:01:37] sms: Vim is fine, just get a plugin for highlighting and indentation
[07:07:30] OliverMT: get a plugin that makes vim into an IDE? :D
[07:07:55] OliverMT: sms: if you're 5 years away from graduating maybe
[07:08:15] OliverMT: I havent seen F# in the wild yet, and I work as a cloud solution architect for Microsoft :P
[07:08:43] OliverMT: and I was the same, hated (and sorta liked some parts) Haskell
[07:08:46] OliverMT: loved elixir when I found it
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[07:39:49] dysfun: OliverMT: flatmap flatmap flatmap boom, fellow functor lover
[07:40:54] dysfun: you should totes learn purescript OliverMT
[07:42:43] Nicd-: I watched a presentation about PureScript once, the learning curve was like this: ______|
[07:42:50] Nicd-: suddenly it just moved to pure magic
[07:43:11] dysfun: if you know haskell, it's pretty easy
[07:43:22] Nicd-: I would imagine
[07:43:23] sevenseacat: does anyone really know haskell though
[07:43:49] dysfun: yes. i don't "really" know it, but i'm quite useful with it
[07:44:41] dysfun: there are people that do
[07:44:48] dysfun: i work with a category theorist
[07:45:01] dysfun: it's been fascinating having input from someone like that to my latest purescript library
[07:49:29] sms: Haskell is more of a lifelong pursuit than a language
[07:49:43] dysfun: well it keeps evolving, so maybe
[07:49:55] dysfun: took me long enough to get good
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[08:50:27] Linuus: General programming question, when changing an exception message, would you consider that a breaking change in Semver?
[08:51:01] Linuus: I guess someone _could_ rely on the message somehow.
[08:51:03] dysfun: not unless you're deliberately encouraging users to check against it
[08:51:33] dysfun: might break some tests, unlikely to break prod
[08:51:39] Linuus: I am not :)
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[08:52:01] dysfun: then no, i'd not consider that a breaking change
[08:52:07] dysfun: and god, i'd have a lot more breakages if i did
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[09:02:16] Linuus: Thanks :)
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[09:37:48] CornishPasty: Is anyone aware of a debug bar for phoenix, similar to the one in Symfony? I'm sure I've seen one before, but I can't find it now
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[09:42:34] Linuus: CornishPasty: This? https://github.com/kagux/ex_debug_toolbar
[09:42:59] CornishPasty: Ah linuus you're a saviour... I swear I tried to google it! :(
[09:43:18] Linuus: No problem :)
[09:44:27] serafeim: this project is stael for more than 1 year :/
[09:44:41] serafeim: is it still maintained ?
[09:45:29] Linuus: I have no idea
[09:47:39] serafeim: i really hate such projects; usually you lose a lot of time to integrate it and then you understand that it doesn't work with your version
[09:48:28] Linuus: Serafeim: You can always contribute updates :)
[09:48:42] serafeim: ha ha ha if the maintainer is not there the PRs won't be merged :)
[09:49:12] Linuus: Then you can fork :)
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[09:50:08] Linuus: I understand what you mean with dead projects but I don't like people complaining on stuff other people has made for free in their spare time.
[09:51:12] CornishPasty: I might fork it
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[11:13:18] serafeim: does anybody use sqlite3 in his dev env or i should bite the bullet and add postgres ?
[11:13:28] serafeim: i am talking about phoenix web framework
[11:13:38] dysfun: why bother with sqlite?
[11:14:03] serafeim: to avoid creating and configuring a development postgres db
[11:14:09] serafeim: this saves me 1-2 minutes
[11:14:10] dysfun: i just use a docker container
[11:14:11] Linuus: Run the same as in prod
[11:14:22] Linuus: Always run the same as in prod :)
[11:14:24] serafeim: linuus no i have a prod db in prod i don't want to mess with this
[11:14:36] Linuus: Serafeim: What do you mean?
[11:14:46] Linuus: If you use postgres in prod you _should_ use it in dev
[11:14:54] Linuus: Period :)
[11:15:02] serafeim: linuus ok if you are so positive
[11:15:06] dysfun: i think it was meant that your wording was a bit overreaching
[11:15:18] serafeim: i'll create a dump database to my local dev postgres
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[11:16:15] Linuus: Serafeim: What are you trying to achieve? Do you want the DB structure or the data?
[11:16:39] serafeim: nothing i just wanted to know if sqlite can be used for dev
[11:16:50] dysfun: it probably can, but don't
[11:17:09] serafeim: f.e other frameworks use it (django) or java/spring use the H2 db
[11:17:16] Linuus: Sure it can, but it's always best to use the same as in prod because there are differences between sqlie and postgres which you will only find out in prod.
[11:17:42] Linuus: And you don't want to find that out when deploying to prod :)
[11:17:48] serafeim: yes i understand
[11:18:09] serafeim: this has bitten me a few times but only if i use raw queries
[11:18:12] mdbm_: should I prefix the private functions with an underscore? defp _foo do ...
[11:18:30] serafeim: mdbm_ why ? they are private after all
[11:18:55] mdbm_: Serafeim, readability? can see immediately in the code if its private or not
[11:19:44] Linuus: mdbm_: It'd not a convention in Elixir but nothing prohibits you from doing that.
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[11:20:17] mdbm_: linuus, I need an authority to tell me if I should do it or not
[11:20:18] serafeim: iirc prefixing "private" things with _ is a python trick to mangle names up
[11:20:30] Linuus: mdbm_: Why? :)
[11:20:37] serafeim: isn't there an elixir code style guide ?
[11:20:41] mdbm_: linuus, that's who I am
[11:21:18] Linuus: mdbm_: Ok, it's not a convention in the community. So, if you want to align your code with the rest of the world, don't use underscore.
[11:21:32] Linuus: IMO that's reason enough :)
[11:21:37] mdbm_: linuus, aaahhhh sounds better:D
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[11:22:09] mdbm_: Serafeim, https://github.com/christopheradams/elixir_style_guide if I search on defp, I see no _
[11:22:30] mdbm_: Serafeim, I hoper that answers your question
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[11:53:00] serafeim: can somebody help me with ecto? I am reading this part: https://hexdocs.pm/phoenix/ecto.html#data-persistence
[11:53:14] serafeim: and try: Repo.insert(%User{email: "user1@example.com"})
[11:53:37] serafeim: this works fine even though *in the previous paragraph) I've declared that user must have the name, bio and email as required
[11:53:43] serafeim: so why is this inserted to the database ?
[11:54:03] ericmj: you need to call the changeset function
[11:54:26] serafeim: also, since I have declared these fields as required *why* thy are nullable in the database ?
[11:54:43] ericmj: Repo.insert(User.changeset(%User{}, email: "user1@example.com"))
[11:55:18] ericmj: you need to define them with `null: false` in the migration
[11:55:44] serafeim: ericmj thanks i'll try it now
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[12:06:12] serafeim: is there a way for an ecto migration to be automatically created ?
[12:06:55] serafeim: I mean i'll change my schema by adding a field and the corresponding migration will be automagically generated so i;ll only need to run it (and not fill it)
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[12:07:54] ericmj: you can use `mix phx.gen.schema`, but that creates a new schema
[12:08:46] ericmj: I prefer to build them separately because there is not a 1-to-1 mapping between your schema and database
[12:08:59] ericmj: and ecto doesn't try to pretend there is a perfect mapping
[12:09:00] serafeim: ericmj well this is not DRY :(
[12:09:14] ericmj: you are not repeating yourself
[12:09:23] serafeim: i seem to be spoiled from my Django years :|
[12:09:37] ericmj: you are defining a schema for your application and a database table
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[12:16:19] serafeim: ericmj yes I understand what you mean; there's different philosophy here
[12:17:02] Nicd-: there might be multiple schemas per table for example
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[12:23:32] serafeim: I am trying the following migration: alter table(:users) do modify :name, null: false end
[12:24:12] serafeim: when i ty running mix ecto.migrate
[12:24:29] serafeim: i get a funny error like this: [serafeim@serafeim-pc playground]$ mix ecto.migrate[info] == Running 20190417121849 Playground.Repo.Migrations.MakeUserNameRequired.change/0 forward** (FunctionClauseError) no function clause matching in Ecto.Migration.validate_type!/1
[12:24:35] ericmj: that function takes 3 arguments, https://hexdocs.pm/ecto_sql/Ecto.Migration.html#modify/3
[12:24:45] ericmj: you are missing the type
[12:28:34] serafeim: oh i thought that since it won't be changed i wouldn't need to also add it
[12:30:34] ericmj: that's not how most database work unfortunately
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[12:32:00] serafeim: yes it works when I change it to alter table(:users) do modify :name, :string, null: false end
[12:32:14] serafeim: thanks ericmj
[12:32:17] serafeim: have a nice day
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[14:25:38] kapil____: Hello i am using arch linux. can i deploy phoenix app made with distrilly in arch linux in ubuntu?
[14:26:51] Nicd-: there may be a problem with library versions, such as openssl
[14:27:10] Nicd-: it's recommended to build on the same OS version as the target is
[14:27:52] hypercore: how can i convert "yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm" to an elixir datetime object?
[14:28:52] Nicd-: use Timex or lau/calendar to parse it into a DateTime struct (there are no objects in Elixir)
[14:29:22] Nicd-: Elixir has https://hexdocs.pm/elixir/DateTime.html#from_iso8601/2 builtin but it may not accept that format
[14:29:25] Nicd-: (test it)
[14:30:57] CornishPasty: It doesn't like it Nicd-
[14:31:09] Nicd-: I suspected as much
[14:33:08] kapil____: Nicd-: Thank you very much
[14:33:58] hypercore: Nicd-: thanks
[14:34:34] hypercore: kapil____: or use docker
[14:36:45] Nicd-: yes, Docker or Vagrant is one possible solution
[14:43:22] kapil____: hypercore: how to user docker?
[14:44:05] kapil____: on ubuntu i use arch docker to deploy release build on arch linux?
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[14:45:34] hypercore: kapil____: the distillery website has some good guides for building and deploying with docker -> https://hexdocs.pm/distillery/guides/building_in_docker.html, https://hexdocs.pm/distillery/guides/working_with_docker.html
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[15:20:55] drewolson: is there anything i can do to prevent having to order my gen stage producer/consumers in "graph order" when starting them from a supervisor?
[15:21:08] drewolson: i've noticed that if i screw up the order my application fails to initialize
[15:21:19] drewolson: by "screw up" i mean start a gen stage before its dependencies are started.
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[15:51:51] josevalim: drewolson: i am not sure what you are asking, but everything you say makes sense :D
[15:52:06] josevalim: i mean, you have to start the things you depend on before
[15:53:43] drewolson: josevalim: yep, was just curious if somehow the supervisor could be smart and see the dependency graph between the gen stages
[15:53:54] drewolson: but considering the dependency is in the init, i'm guessing not
[15:54:03] starbelly: smart supervisors .... kill them with fire :)
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[16:05:35] starbelly: Or better worded for others... supervisors IMO should be as dumb as rocks, they should know how to supervise and nothing more for great reliability.
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[20:07:06] grg: so I'm working on validation that allows for a max number stored on a group object, that restricts the total true count for a boolean on item objects in that group. Does it make sense to have this validation in the changeset? Where the validation I'm thinking of requires a read of the group & associated items?
[20:08:53] benwilson512: grg: rather difficult to validate that w/o race conditions
[20:09:21] benwilson512: grg: regardless though, ideally the data would be read ahead of time and then passed to the changeset
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[20:26:48] grg: does it make sense to place this validation in the create / update mutations (given use of absinthe)?
[20:27:39] grg: and / or, is this more of a use case that should focus on db level validation somehow?
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[22:20:54] wyzzard: I'm running into issues with hardening alpine linux with Docker
[22:20:55] wyzzard: I want to create a new user to run my application but I'm unsure why I'm getting
[22:20:55] wyzzard: a permissions issue with the following code coming from distillery
[22:20:58] wyzzard: Here are the commands I'm running that are causing issue
[22:21:03] wyzzard: https://gist.github.com/tomciopp/b4f5bf1e35030c08dc8beaa706f99926
[22:21:07] wyzzard: I'm getting permissions denied when creating /app/var/log dirs and vm.args
[22:21:12] wyzzard: Anyone with Docker + Distillery knowledge willing to give me a hand would be appreciated
[22:21:19] wyzzard: From my understanding this should transfer ownership to the "app" user who should be able to run those commands. I don't quite know why that isn't the case
[22:21:54] wyzzard: cc: @bitwalker
[22:28:39] tristanm_: I recently had to do a number of fixes to relx's run script to get it to work smoothly when a container was run as a random user
[22:28:53] tristanm_: so it may be that the start scirpt creates a log dir when it doesn't need to
[22:29:13] tristanm_: that was one of the ones in the relx script. that and it was creating ~/.erlang.cookie a number of times it didn't need to
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[23:27:59] starbelly: Elixir 2.0... variable rebinding... gone
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