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#ruby-offtopic - 20 January 2016

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[00:00:07] eam: assume key down after first char, until char not seen in repeat_interval
[00:00:26] eam: you could even let the user calibrate it!
[00:00:32] Ox0dea: I'm doing so. :)
[00:01:20] Ox0dea: It "works", but it doesn't provide the granularity necessary for the experiment I was trying to pull off.
[00:01:32] eam: the delay between char 1 & 2 will be killer
[00:01:57] lucasb: Ox0dea: what experiment?
[00:02:33] Ox0dea: lucasb: I wanted to write a TUI port of https://www.morsecode.io/
[00:02:49] dfockler: :) I was using that last night
[00:03:04] Ox0dea: eam: That can be calibrated as well, of course, but it makes hell of getting the timing right.
[00:03:37] eam: and it'll require a pretty hefty minimum delay
[00:03:52] eam: I think mine's like 500ms
[00:04:08] Ox0dea: Wow, really?
[00:04:16] Ox0dea: I use a delay of 120 and a repeat of 70.
[00:04:25] eam: no idea, eyeballing it
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[00:36:19] Radar: Going to bet that quazimodo won't be able to provide a small reproducible example.
[00:37:28] dfockler: Don't you love debugging highly coupled integrated projects?!
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[00:39:17] Radar: Yes! Please give me more.
[00:41:34] eam: I really do love it
[00:41:50] eam: it's extremely lucrative
[00:42:11] dfockler: I'm working a rails project, that isn't as bad some things, but it's pretty hairy
[00:42:30] dfockler: In regards to lots of weird integrated systems
[00:43:08] Radar: If it was easy, would there be such a skill shortage? ;)
[00:43:08] mg^: I keep putting off learning morse code
[00:43:25] dfockler: mg^: this app is pretty addictive :)
[00:43:42] mg^: Had a technicial-class ham license for 16 years now and never learned morse, I feel like I should be ashamed somehow
[00:43:48] mg^: technician
[00:43:59] mg^: I can tell 5PM is approaching as my typo rate increases
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[00:46:16] eam: you don't need it anymore for a license, do you?
[00:46:30] eam: don't feel too bad, I haven't bothered to get around to getting the license
[00:47:07] mg^: No, haven't needed it for the technician license for ages
[00:47:24] mg^: Might even be optional for higher classes now, I haven't checked
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[00:51:09] Radar: It scares me to think that there's more than one quazimodo in a room together.
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[00:57:01] baweaver: dfockler: I'm dealing with one right now :D (highly coupled project)
[01:01:11] Ox0dea: Is it possible to determine (or, ideally, configure) the sex of a child process before it's spawned?
[01:15:16] dfockler: baweaver: just getting debugging around projects like that is tough
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[01:19:21] dfockler: I didn't realize processes were sexed
[01:20:59] eam: they're not they're unix
[01:21:34] Ox0dea: $ pkgfile sex
[01:21:36] Ox0dea: community/fortune-mod
[01:22:10] Ox0dea: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/saucy/man6/sex.6fun.html
[01:22:53] Radar: This is your weekly reminder that you should never, ever, ever EVER write a book for a publisher: https://twitter.com/ryanbigg/status/689618917011009537
[01:23:17] Radar: If you still feel like giving someone > 50% of your money for no real effort from their behalf, come speak to me and I can sort out some sort of payment arrangement.
[01:24:44] eam: no thanks I already have a similar arrangement worked out with the government
[01:24:56] dfockler: Companies in general want to release payment for anything as late as possible
[01:26:06] dfockler: I also have that relationship with my landlord
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[04:01:28] slash_nick: DeBot: !hangman ruby
[04:01:29] DeBot: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/12 (ruby)
[04:02:11] DeBot: ????????????????????????????????????e????????????E???????????? [] 0/12 (ruby)
[04:02:21] DeBot: ?????????::?????????????????????e????????????E???????????? [] 0/12 (ruby)
[04:02:31] DeBot: ?????????::???????????????r???e????????????Err???r [] 0/12 (ruby)
[04:02:47] DeBot: ?????????::????????????or???e????????????Error [] 0/12 (ruby)
[04:03:36] Radar: DeBot: csv
[04:03:36] DeBot: CSV::????????????or???e???CSVError [] 0/12 (ruby)
[04:03:53] Radar: DeBot: malfd
[04:03:53] DeBot: CSV::MalformedCSVError [] 0/12 (ruby) You won!
[04:04:01] Radar: FLAWLESS VICTORY>
[04:04:22] slash_nick: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:04:22] DeBot: ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:04:24] DeBot: ?????????e????????????????????????????????????e???????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:04:38] DeBot: ?????????e???????????????::???????????????e???????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:06:46] DeBot: ?????????e????????????s::???????????????e???????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:12:53] al2o3-cr: I was thinking trueclass but it's not that
[04:13:06] slash_nick: right, no double s
[04:13:17] slash_nick: plural module name
[04:13:37] slash_nick: r might be a good guess though
[04:13:50] al2o3-cr: go for it :P
[04:14:08] slash_nick: no way, nuh uh ;P
[04:14:33] DeBot: FileUtils::copy_entry [a] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[04:15:04] slash_nick: ACTION scoots back from the edge of his seat
[04:17:51] Ox0dea: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:17:52] DeBot: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:17:56] Ox0dea: We got dis.
[04:18:30] DeBot: ????????????e????????????e?????????????????????e?????????????????????e???????????????e?????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:18:45] DeBot: Logger::Period#previous_period_end [t] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[04:19:18] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:19:19] DeBot: ????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:19:25] DeBot: ???????????????t??????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:19:30] DeBot: ????????????et??????e?????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:20:02] Ox0dea: Spooky gap.
[04:20:34] al2o3-cr: Is that socket
[04:20:35] DeBot: S?????????et??????e?????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:20:39] Ox0dea: Looks like.
[04:20:57] al2o3-cr: It's gotta be #
[04:21:14] DeBot: Socket??????ec?????????o??? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:21:33] al2o3-cr: oh i don't know
[04:21:35] Ox0dea: Doesn't end with punctuation.
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[04:22:05] Ox0dea: Well, I suppose it could.
[04:22:10] DeBot: Socket#???ec?????????o??? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:23:08] DeBot: Socket#recvfrom [n] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[04:23:31] Ox0dea: I would like my score reset to 0.
[04:23:59] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:23:59] DeBot: ??????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:24:07] DeBot: ?????????#??????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:24:15] DeBot: ???S???#????????????????????????s [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:24:19] Ox0dea: DeBot: cv
[04:24:19] DeBot: CSV#????????????????????????s [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:24:26] DeBot: CSV#???e???????????????es [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:24:44] Ox0dea: That should be an L or an N at the end.
[04:25:05] Ox0dea: Could be #tentacles?
[04:25:59] al2o3-cr: i don't know
[04:26:32] DeBot: CSV#???e????????????nes [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:26:37] Ox0dea: I think you called it.
[04:26:45] al2o3-cr: DeBot: radli
[04:26:46] DeBot: CSV#readlines [] 0/1 (ruby) You won!
[04:27:04] al2o3-cr: another flawless victory
[04:28:06] Ox0dea: >> ObjectSpace.each_object.any? { |o| o.respond_to? :tentacles }
[04:28:07] ruby[bot]: Ox0dea: # => false (https://eval.in/504918)
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[04:28:26] Ox0dea: Is that a bug?
[04:29:00] al2o3-cr: I file a report this minute :}
[04:31:14] Ox0dea: $ ruby -r active_support/inflector -e "p 'octopus'.pluralize"
[04:31:20] Ox0dea: Now *there's* a bug.
[04:32:58] al2o3-cr: An octopus (/????kt??p??s/ or /????kt??p??s/; plural: octopuses, octopi, or octopodes;
[04:33:29] Ox0dea: "-pus" is Greek, so it should be "octopodes".
[04:34:48] al2o3-cr: Ok, then it's a buggy
[04:34:57] Ox0dea: It'd be a breaking change for the marine biologists, though, so I'm sure it's here to stay.
[04:37:22] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:37:22] DeBot: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:37:30] DeBot: ?????????::???e???????????????::?????????e????????????e#???e???e???e [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:38:05] Ox0dea: DeBot: dlt
[04:38:05] DeBot: ?????????::???e???????????????::??????le???t??????e#delete [] 0/1 (ruby)
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[04:39:25] DeBot: ??????I::???e??????i??????::???ile???t??????e#delete [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:39:38] DeBot: ??????I::???e??????i??????::File???t??????e#delete [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:39:55] DeBot: ??????I::???e??????io???::File???to???e#delete [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:40:14] DeBot: ??????I::Sessio???::FileSto???e#delete [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:40:32] al2o3-cr: DeBot: rngc
[04:40:32] DeBot: CGI::Session::FileStore#delete [] 0/1 (ruby) You won!
[04:40:53] Ox0dea: 2x flawless.
[04:41:05] al2o3-cr: let's make 3
[04:41:08] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:41:08] DeBot: ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:41:09] Ox0dea: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:41:09] DeBot: ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:41:11] DeBot: ??????????????????????????????e?????????????????????????????????????????????e???????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:41:22] DeBot: Synchronizer_m#sync_upgrade_waiting [:] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[04:41:29] Ox0dea: That happened.
[04:41:40] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:41:40] DeBot: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:41:44] DeBot: ??????e????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:41:47] Ox0dea: DeBot: :#
[04:41:47] DeBot: Shell::unalias_command [#] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[04:42:01] al2o3-cr: You think they'd be there
[04:42:06] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:42:06] DeBot: ??????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:42:12] DeBot: ?????????e??????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:42:24] al2o3-cr: am gonna go for #
[04:42:26] DeBot: FileUtils::cp [#] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[04:42:48] al2o3-cr: DeBot: is pulling my leg
[04:42:57] Ox0dea: Well, that's about soured my appetite.
[04:43:17] al2o3-cr: did eat a lemon?
[04:43:27] Ox0dea: Got 3x flawful. :<
[04:44:00] al2o3-cr: one more go then i'm stopping
[04:44:03] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[04:44:03] DeBot: ????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:44:13] Ox0dea: De???Bot: openssl
[04:44:40] DeBot: ????????????e?????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:45:19] DeBot: ??????t???e?????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:45:53] Ox0dea: It's Matress.
[04:46:20] DeBot: ???st???e?????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[04:46:41] al2o3-cr: DeBot: zram
[04:46:41] DeBot: $stderr [z] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[04:50:30] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman git
[04:50:30] DeBot: ???????????????????????? [] 0/12 (git)
[04:50:37] DeBot: ???????????????????????? [e] 1/12 (git)
[04:50:44] DeBot: ???a?????????????????? [e] 1/12 (git)
[04:51:03] DeBot: ma?????????????????? [e] 1/12 (git)
[04:51:44] DeBot: mai???i????????? [e] 1/12 (git)
[04:52:03] DeBot: maili????????? [e] 1/12 (git)
[04:54:15] DeBot: maili????????? [et] 2/12 (git)
[04:54:40] Radar: DeBot: ng
[04:54:40] DeBot: mailin?????? [etg] 3/12 (git)
[04:54:56] Ox0dea: DeBot: food
[04:54:56] DeBot: mailinfo [etg] 3/12 (git) You won!
[05:02:50] Ox0dea: >> srand 'Cicada 3301'[/\d+/].to_i; all =-> x{x*x}; root = Math.method :sqrt; evil = Process.send Process.methods.sample; root[all[evil]] == $$
[05:02:51] ruby[bot]: Ox0dea: # => true (https://eval.in/504928)
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[05:13:28] Ox0dea: Well, I thought it was cute.
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[07:47:23] baweaver: Ox0dea: debating whether to try for stateless on this new pokegem
[07:48:34] Ox0dea: baweaver: The philosophical implications are... unsettling.
[07:48:50] Ox0dea: "It's okay, Ash... it'll be just like your old Pikachu."
[07:49:08] baweaver: You assume that's not what pokecenters do
[07:50:17] Ox0dea: But, like, does failing to Run return a new Battle?
[07:50:37] baweaver: http://egonschiele.github.io/contracts.ruby/
[07:50:41] baweaver: debating there too
[07:50:49] baweaver: bad things happen when I get bored
[07:50:58] baweaver: Battle is an event loop
[07:51:06] baweaver: it doesn't need any state
[07:52:12] baweaver: That'd be the task of Pokemon::Battle::Turn or something of the like
[07:52:42] Ox0dea: Makes sense.
[07:53:13] Ox0dea: Curious; that time I briefly considered doing it C, I also started thinking about doing it with varargs and various kooky signatures.
[07:53:17] baweaver: takes the last turn and measures speed to determine next
[07:53:31] baweaver: and moves like fly / dig
[07:53:35] baweaver: so many edgecases
[07:53:41] Ox0dea: It's insane.
[07:53:48] Ox0dea: Why can't it be open-source?!
[07:53:49] baweaver: though I think thunder can hit flying pokemon
[07:53:56] Ox0dea: Indeed it can.
[07:54:09] baweaver: Ida and Olly say it can be
[07:54:16] baweaver: and good ol HexEditor
[07:54:29] Ox0dea: For a very loose definition of the word. :P
[07:54:48] baweaver: it's like js minification
[07:54:59] baweaver: you don't _really_ need all those extra characters
[07:55:08] Ox0dea: Familiar with the movfuscator?
[07:55:09] baweaver: real programmers use single letter var names
[07:55:15] baweaver: not offhand
[07:55:20] Ox0dea: `mov` is Turing-complete and some guy went there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7EEoWg6Ekk
[07:55:31] baweaver: c compiler?
[07:56:01] Ox0dea: That compiles down to `mov`s and nothing but.
[07:56:14] Ox0dea: The IDA call graph is just a line.
[07:58:14] Ox0dea: It's not as fun as "Programming with Nothing", but the sense of wonderment is the same.
[07:58:38] baweaver: remember that my knowledge of C/ASM is bunk
[07:58:47] baweaver: I might fix that later
[07:59:20] Ox0dea: `mov` just moves data from one point (address or register) to another (ditto).
[07:59:39] baweaver: got that at least
[07:59:48] Ox0dea: Right, sorry.
[07:59:48] baweaver: any suggested resources for C-fu?
[08:00:19] Ox0dea: Well, I started with TCPL, and it's hard not to recommend it.
[08:00:32] baweaver: K&R book wasn't it?
[08:00:56] Ox0dea: That's the one.
[08:02:03] Ox0dea: I've been meaning to explore the TC-ness of Rule 110, but it's damned confusing.
[08:03:12] Ox0dea: To clarify, Rule 110 has been proved TC; I'm trying to figure out how to program in it.
[08:13:17] Ox0dea: baweaver: There's a bite flag on moves: http://veekun.com/dex/moves/search?flag_bite=yes
[08:13:36] Ox0dea: For 6 of the 621 moves...
[08:14:17] Ox0dea: For 3 Pok??mon...
[08:14:21] Ox0dea: For 1 Ability.
[08:15:21] Ox0dea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_explosion
[08:15:23] baweaver: I'm building up generationally
[08:15:43] baweaver: start with one element and naive evs
[08:15:49] baweaver: and build up from there
[08:15:57] Ox0dea: Sounds like delayed masochism.
[08:16:13] baweaver: I've given this all of 5 minutes of thought though
[08:16:20] baweaver: so don't go by me on it quite yet.
[08:16:21] Ox0dea: "Oh, please, give me all your changing requirements."
[08:17:30] Ox0dea: https://github.com/pret/pokered might be of some utility.
[08:19:38] Ox0dea: Still 68 move effects.
[08:27:00] baweaver: well bed for me
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[12:39:57] Papierkorb: Is there an article somewhere comparing MRI version 2.2 vs 2.3 performance with (micro) benchmarks?
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[16:30:29] mg^: sigh.. out of spoons at work. Eating yogurt with a fork is... suboptimal.
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[16:37:45] choke: could be worse mg^ -- i have to stir my coffee with my finger... our work doesn't supply shit ( i even had to buy a new coffee maker for my house and take my old one into the office for me to use )
[16:38:35] mg^: Well, I normally supply my own spoons, and there's a set of "work" spoons, but my colleagues aren't reliable at washing their dishes
[16:38:41] mg^: so I prefer my own spoons
[16:39:19] mg^: In a pinch I'll use a work spoon, but they are all sitting nasty in the sink
[16:40:04] mg^: and yeah, we've got a bit of penny pinching here, too. I believe the work flatware was donated by an employee
[16:40:15] DefV: we used to have plastic spoons
[16:40:20] mg^: company did pay for the fridge, at least... the rest of the appliances are donation
[16:40:21] DefV: now we have wooden sticks
[16:41:25] tubbo: mg^: there's this awesome thing that some people do called washing dishes
[16:41:31] tubbo: one day you should give it a shot
[16:42:02] mg^: tubbo: yes, I believe in that philosophy. If you dirty a dish, you should wash it. If you did *not* dirty the dish, you are *not* obligated to wash it.
[16:42:42] mg^: besides, we pay someone to wash the dishes, but only once a week.
[16:42:45] tubbo: mg^: meh, takes 5 seconds.
[16:42:57] tubbo: especially a spoon
[16:43:51] al2o3-cr: I use a screwdriver :P
[16:43:53] choke: mg^ you're right, you're not obligated to wash it.. but, if you want to use it -- you could wash it...
[16:44:01] mg^: I'd rather use a fork than touch someone elses dirty spoon. Bit of a mysophobia.
[16:44:10] mg^: Interestingly enough, I wash clean dishes before I use them, too.
[16:44:47] mg^: choke: I don't want to use it *that* much. Would rather use my bare fingers :)
[16:45:01] tubbo: mg^: that means you have obsessive-compulsive disorder.
[16:45:05] mg^: it does
[16:45:06] tubbo: so this conversation is bullshit now :)
[16:46:49] mg^: Well, I wouldn't say it's bullshit. Even if I wasn't OCD, I am against the idea of washing other's dirty dishes in a common area, as that discourages them from doing it themselves.
[16:47:25] mg^: But others differ on that, of course.
[16:50:32] choke: glad I don't work there -- we have someone wash the stuff that we do have ( and clean the office ) once a week, and the rest of the week it's our "office managers" job to do it ( though I still wash my own coffee cup, and hide it so she doesn't touch it )
[16:52:59] mg^: Yeah, we have someone in once a week, but really my coworkers use more dishes than that. No "office manager" or equivalent
[16:53:17] mg^: and yeah, coffee cups are a very personal item. Not to be entrusted to anyone. :-)
[16:56:10] tubbo: @choke i used to have that problem in a past job...like wtf you know this is the cup i always use why would you steal it
[16:56:18] tubbo: especially if *i* brought it from home
[16:56:37] tubbo: mg^: yeah but if you're OCD, you clearly have a bias toward irrational actions.
[16:56:49] tubbo: just like if you're clinically depressed, you have a bias towards pessimism.
[16:56:57] choke: lol, yeah i had that issue with a water glass.. it went missing for like 2 weeks, couldn't find it in either office... and all the sudden it was there
[16:57:03] choke: so I took it home...
[16:57:22] tubbo: it's not a bad thing it just makes my argument make less ense
[16:57:38] mg^: 90% ethyl alcohol bath for that glass!
[16:57:42] tubbo: i just keep all my shit on my desk rather than in the cupboard
[16:57:57] tubbo: need to get a to-go coffee cup so i stop using all this paper
[16:58:03] tubbo: then i will be trash free!
[16:58:12] choke: I am that way too, but our cleaning people remove stuff from our desk... so now, I hide it in my server cabinet
[16:59:47] mg^: yeah we gave our cleaning people explicit instructions not to disturb desks
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[17:00:35] choke: I would, but i don't speak spanish lol
[17:02:09] choke: only thing they remove from our desks, is cups and empty plastic cups... so, it's safer to just hide it in my server cabinet which only I have the key to unlock ( which I do every morning so it works )
[17:03:43] choke: but, it's 9am -- so time to go shower and get ready to go into the office
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[17:44:10] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[17:44:10] DeBot: ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[17:44:23] DeBot: ?????????::???e???????????????::???????????????e#???e???e???e [] 0/1 (ruby)
[17:44:39] DeBot: ?????????::???e???????????????::??????t??????e#delete [] 0/1 (ruby)
[17:44:54] al2o3-cr: DeBot: cgision
[17:44:55] DeBot: CGI::Session::???Sto???e#delete [] 0/1 (ruby)
[17:45:20] al2o3-cr: is that pstore?
[17:46:01] DeBot: CGI::Session::???Store#delete [] 0/1 (ruby)
[17:46:19] DeBot: CGI::Session::PStore#delete [] 0/1 (ruby) You won!
[17:46:28] al2o3-cr: flawless victory!
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[18:00:10] smathy: ACTION was here to see it
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[18:12:10] slash_nick: and solo.... magnanimous
[18:12:18] slash_nick: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[18:12:18] DeBot: ???????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:12:25] DeBot: ?????????e????????????????????????e????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:12:30] DeBot: ?????????e???i??????????????????e????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:12:39] slash_nick: oh curveball... was hoping for File
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[18:21:24] DeBot: ?????????eri??????????????????er?????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:21:29] DeBot: Numeric???n???n???er?????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
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[18:22:59] al2o3-cr: DeBot: #oz?
[18:22:59] DeBot: Numeric#nonzero? [] 0/1 (ruby) You won!
[18:23:57] slash_nick: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[18:23:57] DeBot: ????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:24:06] DeBot: ???????????????e??????????????????e?????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
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[18:25:50] DeBot: ???????????????e??????i?????????e?????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:26:10] DeBot: Complex#inspect [a] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[18:26:23] al2o3-cr: nearly 3/3 :P
[18:26:28] slash_nick: feck..foook...fock.
[18:26:40] slash_nick: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[18:26:40] DeBot: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:26:44] slash_nick: DeBot: eartisonl
[18:26:45] DeBot: O???enSSL???????????????????????????erti???i???ate???si???nat???re???al???orit?????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:27:02] slash_nick: DeBot: pcfghm
[18:27:02] DeBot: OpenSSL????????????????????????Certificate???signat???re???algorithm [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:27:03] DeBot: OpenSSL::????????????::Certificate#signat???re???algorithm [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:27:18] al2o3-cr: DeBot: x509
[18:27:18] DeBot: OpenSSL::X509::Certificate#signat???re???algorithm [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:27:21] slash_nick: ooh... numbers in the mod... nice
[18:27:28] DeBot: OpenSSL::X509::Certificate#signature_algorithm [] 0/1 (ruby) You won!
[18:27:35] slash_nick: 3/4 aint bad
[18:28:06] al2o3-cr: it's elite :p
[18:28:48] yorickpeterse: https://youtu.be/0os8giTbQkk?list=PLeLVhkXsPYusRtjqCtCw8epV-Ou7CI_Bz
[18:28:59] yorickpeterse: interesting watch
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[18:40:44] dfockler: DeBot: !hangman ruby
[18:40:44] DeBot: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/12 (ruby)
[18:40:50] DeBot: ?????????????????????::??????????????????#?????????????????? [] 0/12 (ruby)
[18:41:06] dfockler: DeBot: opsl
[18:41:06] DeBot: Op??????SSL::????????????s???#???p???????????? [] 0/12 (ruby)
[18:41:13] DeBot: OpenSSL::?????????es???#???p?????????e [] 0/12 (ruby)
[18:42:09] workmad3_: DeBot: digt
[18:42:10] DeBot: OpenSSL::Digest#???pd???te [] 0/12 (ruby)
[18:42:16] DeBot: OpenSSL::Digest#update [] 0/12 (ruby) You won!
[18:42:33] workmad3_: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[18:42:34] DeBot: ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:42:43] workmad3_: dfockler: ^ have fun :)
[18:42:59] DeBot: ??????????????????::?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????#???????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:43:45] workmad3_: I'm off for food
[18:43:47] DeBot: ???a????????????::????????????n???a??????????????????????????????s????????????n#?????????a [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:44:03] DeBot: ???at?????????::????????????n???a??????????????????o??????os???t???on#to_a [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:45:24] DeBot: ???at???i???::???i??????n???a??????????????????o??????osition#to_a [] 0/1 (ruby)
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[18:48:07] DeBot: Matrix::Ei???en???a??????eDecomposition#to_a [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:48:22] dfockler: DeBot: gvlu
[18:48:22] DeBot: Matrix::EigenvalueDecomposition#to_a [] 0/1 (ruby) You won!
[18:49:13] dfockler: Well now I can quit for the day
[18:49:54] slash_nick: fantastic work
[18:49:58] slash_nick: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[18:49:58] DeBot: ????????????????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:50:03] DeBot: ??????????????????????????????e [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:50:07] slash_nick: we're screwed.
[18:50:12] DeBot: I?????????????????????i???e [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:50:32] DeBot: I???#???????????????i???e [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:50:36] DeBot: IO#???????????????i???e [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:50:46] DeBot: IO#syswrite [z] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[18:51:07] slash_nick: maybe debot will give us another shot
[18:51:10] slash_nick: DeBot: !hangman ruby 1
[18:51:10] DeBot: ???????????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:51:17] slash_nick: long live debot
[18:51:18] dfockler: it never ends
[18:51:23] DeBot: ???e?????????????????? [] 0/1 (ruby)
[18:51:33] slash_nick: DeBot: Net::HTTP
[18:51:33] DeBot: Set#map! [n] 1/1 (ruby) You lost!
[18:52:31] dfockler: wow just went for it
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[18:55:10] yorickpeterse: stand aside and watch a pro work the hangman
[18:55:13] yorickpeterse: DeBot: !hangman java
[18:55:14] DeBot: ????????????????????????????????? [] 0/12 (java)
[18:55:19] yorickpeterse: DeBot: factorybeanexception
[18:55:19] DeBot: Co??????ection??? [farybxp] 7/12 (java)
[18:55:23] DeBot: Collection??? [farybxp] 7/12 (java)
[18:55:30] DeBot: Collections [farybxp] 7/12 (java) You won!
[18:55:36] yorickpeterse: ???(???)??? nailed it
[18:59:01] al2o3-cr: Isn't yorick a programming language
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[21:03:44] adaedra: &ri Test::IgnoreMe
[21:03:44] [derpy]: No results
[21:05:32] arthropododo: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[21:06:05] hxegon: has joined #ruby-offtopic
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[21:14:46] arthropododo: so at which point does a ruby user becomes a rubyist?
[21:15:07] smathy: arthropododo, as soon as they refuse to use any other language?
[21:15:28] baweaver: As soon as they don't feel a need to ask that question
[21:20:05] apeiros: please, somebody add 3) it's not php in #ruby???
[21:20:24] adaedra: I could go with the bot but that would be cheating.
[21:20:27] adaedra: By the way
[21:20:31] adaedra: ACTION high-fives apeiros 
[21:20:50] adaedra: Awww, norc.
[21:21:05] apeiros: they're not in ot :(
[21:24:40] lucasb: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[21:29:16] Radar: arthropododo: when they write their first line of Ruby.
[21:29:26] Radar: arthropododo: It's not like you get a License to Ruby.
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[21:39:26] lucasb: DeBot: sup
[21:39:35] lucasb: DeBot: !hangman
[21:39:35] DeBot: ??????????????? [] 0/12 (nouns)
[21:40:14] Ox0dea: DeBot: ghost
[21:40:14] DeBot: st????????? [gho] 3/12 (nouns)
[21:40:30] lucasb: DeBot: aeiuy
[21:40:31] DeBot: sta?????? [ghoeiuy] 7/12 (nouns)
[21:40:40] smathy: DeBot, mp
[21:40:40] DeBot: sta?????? [ghoeiuymp] 9/12 (nouns)
[21:41:05] DeBot: sta?????? [ghoeiuympl] 10/12 (nouns)
[21:41:42] DeBot: sta?????? [ghoeiuymplc] 11/12 (nouns)
[21:41:58] lucasb: http://www.onelook.com/?w=sta??
[21:42:08] DeBot: staff [ghoeiuymplc] 11/12 (nouns) You won!
[21:42:21] smathy: ACTION takes a bow
[21:42:30] adaedra: that's dangerous.
[21:42:36] lucasb: getting staff done
[21:42:48] adaedra: oh no you didn't.
[21:47:13] arthropododo: was this bot made with ruby?
[21:47:27] eam: crystal
[21:47:41] eam: https://github.com/jhass/DeBot
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[21:47:58] adaedra: that's a spy.
[21:48:10] slash_nick: adaedra: for which side?
[21:48:24] adaedra: crystal, of course.
[21:48:41] lucasb: shine on you crazyyy, crystal
[21:48:42] adaedra: et tu, DeBot?
[21:48:52] eam: why is there a programming language named after an illegal drug
[21:49:23] adaedra: Because it's not _only_ an illegal drug?
[21:49:26] lucasb: I read somewhere Ruby and Crystal are stripper names
[21:49:37] eam: lucasb: that's Krystal
[21:51:24] lucasb: (sorry for the joke)
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[21:55:04] eam: rollin' my eyes
[21:55:28] lucasb: talking about good behavior, maybe ruby is getting a conduct code: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004
[21:55:40] eam: good behavior is good!
[21:56:21] eam: I'm merely skeptical that commentary on the cultural norms of the american lower class is an issue
[21:57:10] Ox0dea: Coraline: What took you so long?
[22:00:18] eam: lucasb: that is to say, the difference between being nice, being rude, and cultivating a culture of perpetual offense
[22:00:50] lucasb: how dare you say that!?!
[22:00:53] eam: well shit
[22:00:57] lucasb: just kidding :D
[22:01:14] lucasb: It's easy to misunderstand thing on irc
[22:01:33] lucasb: well, on any written media
[22:01:40] eam: misunderstandings occur
[22:03:12] eam: for some more often than others
[22:03:55] Coraline: Ox0dea: for what?
[22:04:02] Coraline: Oh that. :)
[22:04:05] Ox0dea: Coraline: To come after Ruby.
[22:04:17] Coraline: I wouldn't call it "coming after"
[22:04:17] Ox0dea: The Opal debacle was seven months ago.
[22:04:35] Coraline: I tried reaching out to Matz directly first.
[22:04:51] Coraline: And I talked to a few other people too
[22:05:02] Coraline: I wanted to be more careful I guess.
[22:05:04] eam: it's an interesting problem, getting socially awkward people to engage in socially welcoming, non-awkward fashions
[22:05:46] Coraline: Matz seems to be leaning toward crafting one specifically for Ruby, which will be good as long as marginalized people who know about these things are involved in the process.
[22:06:11] guacamole: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[22:11:26] eam: kinda seems like ruby already has one: MINASWAN
[22:12:26] Coraline: That's a motto. There's nothing that you can do with that.
[22:12:38] Coraline: What's the consequence of violating MINASWAN?
[22:12:46] Coraline: What does 'nice' mean?
[22:13:04] eam: I'd suggest it's not materially more or less subjective than the CoC
[22:13:19] Coraline: I'd disagree with that statement.
[22:13:31] Coraline: And enforcement is a necessary part of a CoC.
[22:13:43] eam: I get why it's useful to go into more detail, but I have a pretty dim view of how some of those details have been leveraged in disingenuous fashions (wildly different standards)
[22:14:10] Coraline: Maybe some people would consider making sexual advances 'nice' because it's a compliment to the other person.
[22:14:33] eam: certainly. But there's similar ambiguity lurking in the CoC
[22:14:52] Coraline: Some things are necessarily left to interpretation by maintainers.
[22:14:54] eam: I've seen a few mobs form around completely unoffensive behavior
[22:15:08] Coraline: It's impossible to spell out every type of bad behavior.
[22:15:35] Ox0dea: Maintainer discretion is the all-encompassing umbrella for which you're looking.
[22:15:44] Ox0dea: > I believe Matz to handle his ability better than written text.
[22:15:48] eam: Ox0dea: indeed, which I think is what this boils down to regardless
[22:16:00] Ox0dea: Naruse-san hits it on the head.
[22:16:11] Coraline: CoCs are also an important signaling mechanism.
[22:16:13] smathy: "enforcement" has to be done by the maintainers anyway, so it's all discretionary - whether there's a CoC or not.
[22:16:22] Coraline: CoCs set expectations.
[22:16:22] eam: Coraline: I do understand the motive behind the CoC, fwiw. I understand why they're pursued
[22:16:38] smathy: MINASWAN sets expectations too.
[22:16:39] Coraline: They codify community standards.
[22:16:47] eam: I'm just not entirely convinced it's a positive signal
[22:17:05] Coraline: As a marginalized person I can tell you that it is.
[22:17:17] eam: well, I would agree you feel that way
[22:17:30] Ox0dea: A CoC says "we have to have a document to keep our members in line".
[22:17:35] Ox0dea: Fuck that noise.
[22:17:36] eam: but I'm not sure that it actually is a positive thing, either for marginalized people or for everyone else
[22:17:42] adaedra: has left #ruby-offtopic: ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
[22:18:37] Ox0dea: Coraline: In the absence of an "official" Ruby CoC, it's just been anarchy and chaos up to this point, yeah?
[22:19:06] Coraline: In the absence of a CoC there are people who will not feel comfortable contributing to Ruby.
[22:19:08] yxhuvud: of course. <3 anarchy
[22:19:15] smathy: Coraline, with and without.
[22:19:47] Coraline: I fail to see how a CoC causes harm.
[22:20:11] Papierkorb: If someone is not willing to discuss something, but just wants to finger point at some person, then that person is not worth having anyway.
[22:20:39] Coraline: I'm not going to have a discussion with someone who sexually harasses me, sorrynotsorry
[22:20:52] Papierkorb: It's almost as if people can't have discussions anymore
[22:20:57] Papierkorb: Coraline: Why .. should someone do that?
[22:21:04] Coraline: It happens.
[22:21:04] Ox0dea: Coraline: Are you such a person who does not presently feel comfortable contributing to Ruby?
[22:21:17] yxhuvud: if anything, a coc give people something to refer to in response to bad behaviour without being seen as a sjw, so that is probably a good thing.
[22:21:23] smathy: Coraline, well, for me, it implies that a project/community is full of assholes who are faking tolerance in order to conform to the CoC.
[22:21:26] Papierkorb: Coraline: Applications have Killfiles for a reason. To permanently ignore trolls, idiots, and whoever else you don't want to hear about anymore
[22:21:28] ljarvis: mother of god i have written so much Swift today
[22:21:45] smathy: I really don't want to be involved with any community who need some written standard for being nice.
[22:22:04] ljarvis: well i opened irc at a bad time
[22:22:05] Papierkorb: Coraline: "It happens" is not a valid argument. When and where did it happen? What were the circumstances? Etc.?
[22:22:09] ljarvis: ACTION walks out
[22:22:12] workmad3_: ljarvis: same!
[22:22:12] smathy: It's like a religion, obeying some written rules instead of using their brains and just being human.
[22:22:13] Coraline: It's happened here.
[22:22:28] ljarvis: workmad3_: lets go eat and watch a movie
[22:22:31] Papierkorb: Coraline: Aha?
[22:22:35] Coraline: Humans are capable of horrible things.
[22:22:37] workmad3_: ljarvis: +1
[22:22:43] smathy: Coraline, yes they are, and?
[22:22:44] Coraline: Being human is not a moral code.
[22:22:46] Radar: Ok, I'm out.
[22:22:47] Radar: has left #ruby-offtopic: ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
[22:22:51] eam: I mean, there are two sides to this and Coraline is absolutely correct that people sometimes treat each other in shitty ways
[22:23:06] yxhuvud: any community that end up big enough will need some rules.
[22:23:27] ljarvis: but seriously, apart from the weird APIs, Swift is gorgeous
[22:23:32] eam: the material question for me is whether codifying things in this manner will make things better or worse -- and right now I see evidence of both
[22:23:34] smathy: eam, of course they do.
[22:24:01] workmad3: ljarvis: haha :)
[22:24:11] eam: I do see the CoC type stuff helping to shed light on behaviors that hurt others. But I also see them being used to lead crusades against people who aren't actually saying or doing anything offensive
[22:24:37] eam: and I worry a bit when the response is "I fail to see how they cause harm"
[22:24:56] eam: because it's so obvious that they've been used to harm as well as help, to me that just indicates a rather dangerous bias
[22:25:21] smathy: It boils down really to two entirely different world views. First: people are generally nice, generally benevolent, and will generally work towards mutually beneficial goals. Second: people are assholes, they need to be kept in line, and we need clear, written rules that must be enforced, because people's dominant tendency is malevolence.
[22:25:51] yxhuvud: smathy: third opinion: both kinds exist. How do we handle that?
[22:26:02] eam: smathy: and the twist, a large vocal minority are looking to change the status quo and attempting to create tools
[22:26:14] smathy: yxhuvud, the way we've been doing so far, kick them out when they show themselves.
[22:26:35] eam: and that change itself (what it looks like, how it will manifest) is what much of this is about
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[22:27:18] yxhuvud: sometimes people need to be made aware that they are assholes though, as most people are not really aware of that fact.
[22:27:23] Papierkorb: The pattern *I* have seen as of yet is that those who cry for CoCs are those who've never contributed before or after for the project they're almost demanding it.
[22:27:23] Ox0dea: "Let's all strive to have a thinner skin" is not a laudable battle cry.
[22:28:00] smathy: yxhuvud, agreed, don't need a CoC for that.
[22:28:33] Coraline: Please don't talk to me about having a thicker skin. You have no idea what I go through every single day.
[22:28:43] Coraline: This shit wears down on you.
[22:29:07] Papierkorb: ACTION grabs some popcorn
[22:29:07] yxhuvud: smathy: I think some people actually do need that.
[22:29:15] Ox0dea: Inflicting your suffering on others is unethical.
[22:29:35] Coraline: By what stretch of the imagination am I inflicting suffering on others?
[22:29:46] smathy: Coraline, there's a big difference between requiring people to have thicker skin, and lauding people's thin skin.
[22:29:53] Papierkorb: Coraline: by demanding a CoC because of what you "go through every single day"
[22:30:19] mg^: OK getting myself upt o speed
[22:30:22] mg^: "Other unethical or unprofessional conduct" is rather subjective.
[22:30:23] Coraline: You're right, the abuse I get should just be ignored.
[22:30:26] eam: Coraline isn't demanding, is she? I saw a respectful request
[22:30:27] yxhuvud: Papierkorb, that seems like a really good reason for wanting one, actually.
[22:30:37] Papierkorb: CoCs are there to stop discussion, not to further it.
[22:30:40] smathy: yxhuvud, right, as I said, different world views. I don't think a community needs it in order to identify the assholes and self-regulate.
[22:30:41] Coraline: I should just drop out of oSS
[22:31:03] yxhuvud: coraline: please don't.
[22:31:18] Coraline: And cancel my Twitter account. And stop reading email.
[22:31:33] Coraline: Gods forbid people be held accountable.
[22:31:42] Ox0dea: Coraline: Post code.
[22:31:51] Coraline: Maybe I should go to the police with my abusive emails.
[22:31:52] Papierkorb: ACTION popcorn intensifies
[22:31:56] yxhuvud: code doesn't help against assholes.
[22:31:59] Papierkorb: Coraline: Correct! Ding ding!
[22:32:00] eam: Coraline: you absolutely should do that
[22:32:07] smathy: Yeah, I didn't see it as a demand either /cc Ox0dea eam
[22:32:09] Papierkorb: Coraline: Please. Go to the police. Those are there to help you.
[22:32:13] smathy: A very respectful proposal.
[22:32:16] Papierkorb: Coraline: If you don't ??? Why?
[22:32:18] Ox0dea: "Demand" wasn't my word.
[22:32:23] Papierkorb: Coraline: Have you?
[22:32:25] yxhuvud: seriously, if code helped against assholes, how the fuck is people like stallman still around?
[22:32:29] Coraline: Others have.
[22:32:36] Papierkorb: Coraline: Have *YOU* ?
[22:32:38] eam: Papierkorb: she's right, you know
[22:32:42] Ox0dea: yxhuvud: Stallman is an asshole? Wat.
[22:32:43] Coraline: Harassment is not illegal.
[22:33:01] mg^: Yeah I don't recall RMS being an asshole
[22:33:08] yxhuvud: he most certainly is. that doesn't necessarily make him wrong in every way.
[22:33:19] mg^: Torvalds, de Raadt, and a few others, sure.
[22:33:23] eam: it can be, but in very limited circumstances and much of what occurs -- things we'd all hopefully agree are unacceptable -- is not illegal
[22:33:37] Papierkorb: eam: I see a random internet nick called 'Coraline', who most likely is not a bot but a real person. This is the internet. How does it even matter if the person on the other end is male or female or anything else? It does not.
[22:33:54] Coraline: It matters.
[22:33:55] Papierkorb: eam: As in, how are you inferring that Coraline is a she ?
[22:33:59] Papierkorb: Coraline: Why?
[22:34:05] eam: well, because I've read some of her work.
[22:34:19] eam: there's a picture of a woman on the above ruby issue
[22:34:21] smathy: Papierkorb, you're asking her why it matters to the people who abuse her?
[22:34:21] Coraline: Because it's who I am and contributes to a) how I see the world, and b) how the world sees me
[22:34:31] Papierkorb: smathy: No I don't
[22:34:38] smathy: Ok good, that seemed nuts.
[22:34:39] eam: Papierkorb: I do agree it doesn't matter which gender is involved
[22:34:41] smathy: I lost track then.
[22:34:46] Papierkorb: smathy: I'm asking why it matters if the other end is of any gender
[22:35:14] smathy: Papierkorb, not sure why you think she believes it does.
[22:35:19] Coraline: It matters apparently to people who insist that I'm not a woman.
[22:35:43] Coraline: Saying it doesn't matter is erasure.
[22:35:45] Papierkorb: smathy: I don't believe it, nor do I believe it. I don't know. Hence me asking why.
[22:36:15] smathy: Papierkorb, I didn't see her ever say it mattered. She's just explaining that it seems to matter to some other people.
[22:36:28] Papierkorb: Who are those some other people?
[22:36:41] smathy: Papierkorb, I dunno, these people who abuse her.
[22:36:52] Coraline: You actually want me to name off all the people who have come after me?
[22:37:24] eam: I liked this discussion better when it wasn't personal, frankly
[22:37:28] Papierkorb: Is harassment ethical? No. Is pushing an anti-harassment agenda onto others because I could be an harasser, while the author does not know me nor does the author even know of my existence, ethical? Neither.
[22:37:46] Coraline: "An anti-harassment agenda"
[22:38:03] Coraline: My desire to be treated as a human being is an agenda now.
[22:38:24] eam: well let's be clear, the CoC is about more than that
[22:38:37] Papierkorb: Coraline: No. Go to the communities where those people reside, and call them out. If that does not help: I'm really sorry. I am. There's nothing I can do nor you can do (in that moment).
[22:38:40] yxhuvud: Is adopting an anti harassment agenda ethical because NOT HAVING ONE OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T WORK ethical? sure.
[22:38:44] eam: MINASWAN covers treating people respectfully
[22:39:21] Coraline: It's about clearly stating community values, outlining examples of unacceptable behavior, putting forward an enforcement mechanism with consequences, and signaling inclusivity.
[22:39:28] eam: Papierkorb: there are things which can be done. The debate, I think, surrounds which of the various things are constructive in the long run
[22:39:33] Papierkorb: If there were a CoC in place, would have it helped you? A responsible admin/moderator/whatever will have acted with or without one
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[22:40:01] Coraline: I have no way of knowing if a maintainer is responsible or not
[22:40:20] eam: Coraline: this is true even with a CoC, yes?
[22:40:41] Coraline: Again, it's a signal.
[22:41:06] Ox0dea: "The CoC is a signal, as is the act of destroying it."
[22:41:11] eam: but so is MINASWAN
[22:41:28] eam: Ox0dea: but the act of rejecting it isn't a signal -- and actually that's a big part of the problem
[22:41:39] Papierkorb: eam: I just really really really dislike the whole notion of a CoC. It's like a blacklist of things you are not allowed to do ??? Granted, many of those things strike common sense so you wouldn't do it anyway! ??? But it also carries the notion of not believing that most people are good people. There are black sheep, no doubt. Kick those out. That's the sole reason for having some kind of moderation in place in almost every discussion '
[22:41:57] eam: I've seen some people become the target of mobs not for saying anything offensive, but merely for declining to participate in some progressive undertaking
[22:42:01] Ox0dea: The analogy to religion is quite apt.
[22:42:22] eam: eg "your silence on this issue is an attack on me"
[22:42:43] eam: Ox0dea: agreed, it's very similar to "your failure to join my religion is an attack on my religion"
[22:42:53] Ox0dea: "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." -- Some German Theoretical Physicist
[22:43:41] Ox0dea: Coraline: Is the Ruby community such a sorry lot, by your lights?
[22:43:47] smathy: Coraline, HAVING a CoC is a negative signal to me and many others too. As I mentioned above, it says to me: "Our community is full of assholes who need policing with a CoC."
[22:43:54] Papierkorb: eam: It is disrespectful to me to think I'm a bad person with malicious intention without knowing me. It's like you think all others are children, and not adults, able to discuss issues. Progress does not evolve by hiding, including hiding the bad. The good can improve by learning more about the bad, by which the concept of 'CoC's are just another step, a wild guess of evolution (in this context) to try it out. if they persist or will
[22:43:56] Papierkorb: just go away, only time will tell
[22:44:18] eam: Papierkorb: I can see that point of view. I also think it's OK to state values
[22:44:22] yxhuvud: keeping silence means accepting the status quo means being an asshole. People keeping silent is what allows the abuse to continue.
[22:44:33] Coraline: Good thing we don't have laws. That would mean that America is full of bad people!
[22:44:42] Coraline: Rules are stupid!
[22:44:51] Ox0dea: Anarchy in the UK!
[22:44:54] Coraline: Good thing this channel doesn't have a CoC and mods!
[22:45:09] eam: yxhuvud: the trouble is that there are abusers in every large enough group, including people who will abuse others using something like a community standards document
[22:45:14] smathy: Coraline, I do actually think that morality laws are stupid, yes.
[22:45:22] Papierkorb: Coraline: Time showed us that laws work to an extent, when written properly, allowing enough freedom for progress. (If every law is written properly is another discussion)
[22:45:44] Ox0dea: smathy: There's no objective morality, you say?
[22:45:50] yxhuvud: Papierkorb, and the same is true with CoCs.
[22:46:11] smathy: Ox0dea, is/isn't doesn't necessitate legislating it.
[22:46:18] Papierkorb: yxhuvud: None of those I read up to now took that in mind.
[22:46:20] eam: one of the reasons I think MINASWAN is rather genius is that it acts as a signal towards desired behavior (be nice!) without giving people tools to assert power over each other for petty offenses
[22:46:40] Ox0dea: It makes so much sense it hurts.
[22:46:58] smathy: Ox0dea, there should be no morality laws for the same reason that the separation of church and state (should) exists.
[22:47:10] Ox0dea: Dat parenthetical doe.
[22:47:14] Papierkorb: yxhuvud: The only real CoC needed is: "Don't be an asshole, or we'll call you out and kick you out of the community" ??? And that should be true anyway, regardless of if there is a file called COC.md somewhere in your repository
[22:47:41] yxhuvud: papierkorb: that works as well as a law against not being an asshole. Sorry, no dice.
[22:47:41] Coraline: What's wrong with defining your terms?
[22:47:43] Papierkorb: As in, yes I think that is covered by MINASWAN
[22:48:05] eam: Coraline: I think there's nothing wrong with ongoing discussion regarding community standards
[22:48:09] Coraline: What's wrong with stating what will happen if you are in fact an asshole?
[22:48:16] Papierkorb: Coraline: What's wrong with MINASWAN?
[22:48:21] Coraline: What's wrong with saying "we don't want assholes"?
[22:48:31] yxhuvud: Papierkorb, it is a guideline. It is not a rule.
[22:48:34] Papierkorb: Coraline: Covered by MINASWAN
[22:48:37] Coraline: MINISWAN is insufficient. A motto is not a code of conduct.
[22:48:41] eam: Coraline: because "asshole" isn't a binary thing
[22:48:48] Coraline: "we are nice"
[22:48:51] Coraline: What if we're not?
[22:49:06] Papierkorb: Then you broke it. The community may thus reject your presence
[22:49:22] Papierkorb: It's almost as if adults can choose to not talk to people they resent
[22:49:29] eam: in this channel we deal with a huge spectrum of misbehaviors, ranging from truly egregious trolling to accidental rudeness, lack of awareness, or even miscommunication -- where no offense existed at all
[22:49:37] yxhuvud: stuff like being an asshole must be defined, because people doesn't agree otherwise.
[22:49:52] eam: at the end of the day, it's all just as subjective as MINASWAN
[22:50:12] Papierkorb: yxhuvud: I'd like to add 'cunt' to the mix, else it looks like the malicious party is always male!
[22:50:30] eam: well, everyone has assholes (I hope)
[22:50:32] smathy: Coraline, your CoC is not just definition. It's all pledges, commitments and obligations.
[22:50:33] yxhuvud: I'm reasonably certain girls have assholes as well.
[22:51:17] eam: Coraline: personally, I would not adopt such a thing because I do not want to be involved in an argument where I'm accused of not properly following the CoC
[22:51:42] eam: I would very happily put something like MINASWAN in all of my projects though, or a statement asserting respect for all
[22:52:03] yxhuvud: eam: then behave like someone that is not an asshole, and you will be alright.
[22:52:10] smathy: Right, I don't want the obligation of removing comments, OMG, OSS is hard enough to maintain already.
[22:52:18] eam: yxhuvud: unfortunately that's not true, in part because "not an asshole" is completely subjective
[22:52:40] eam: I've been called one before, for saying very reasonable things (like, for example, "I will probably not adopt a CoC")
[22:52:42] yxhuvud: but a CoC is less subejctive, which is the goddamned point.
[22:52:56] eam: yxhuvud: it's not
[22:52:56] Papierkorb: Why is it not subjective?
[22:53:12] Papierkorb: It carries the intent and views of the writer(s)
[22:53:29] Papierkorb: Which is the point of writing something, still, that's subjective
[22:53:33] smathy: The internet has long operated successfully on the policy of caveat emptor. If you don't like a comment, stop reading, move on, or get some software for your browser that hides it from you. Don't burden a project maintainer with policing the things you're offended by.
[22:53:41] eam: the subjectivity becomes whether I as a maintainer am following it correctly. Was I right or wrong in judging some comment in a PR? If people thing I made a bad call, the CoC becomes a tool with which to attack me
[22:53:53] eam: (in a situation I'm not really involved in at all)
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[22:54:08] eam: this is why I lean towards something like MINASWAN
[22:54:17] eam: I do not want to be pulled into those drama storms
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[22:55:26] Papierkorb: I don't want to sound disrespectful. But if every day is shit .. get professional help. There are people to help, who got years of training on how to do it. The internet is not the correct forum, or the correct tool, for that.
[22:55:29] yxhuvud: if you as a maintainer maintain a project when something like this is happening, you are pulled into it regardless of if you want to or not. I really don't see how having more details on what is accepted behaviour makes your problem worse.
[22:55:34] Coraline: Harassment is not a drama storm.
[22:55:49] eam: Coraline: now that is unequivocally false
[22:55:56] smathy: Coraline, https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 says otherwise.
[22:56:00] eam: harassment and drama quite clearly go hand in hand
[22:56:03] Coraline: I got doxxed. Tell me how that's drama.
[22:56:06] Papierkorb: Coraline: What is harassment? Genuine question.
[22:56:21] smathy: Coraline, oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant "the policing of harassment"
[22:56:30] eam: Coraline: it's drama because you're upset about it. A lot of people are (rightfully) upset about it
[22:56:35] eam: I didn't say the drama was unjustified
[22:56:53] smathy: Coraline, so instead, now, I think you misunderstood eam's point. He's saying that the drama storm stems from the policing of the CoC.
[22:56:54] Coraline: Being put in fear of my safety is more than drama.
[22:57:03] eam: I'm not saying it stems from the CoC
[22:57:07] eam: I'm just saying it exists
[22:57:15] Papierkorb: Coraline: And how would've a CoC prevented that?
[22:57:21] eam: and it does, and Coraline you're right there's also much more than just drama
[22:57:32] eam: I'm not saying it's *only* drama
[22:58:01] Coraline: If I had been doxed by a contributor to a project then there could be consequences for that person.
[22:58:08] eam: what I'm saying is that I do not want to be involved in the drama. If someone says something borderline, I do not want to be pulled into an argument about where this lies in a CoC
[22:58:25] Papierkorb: Coraline: You really think so? How would've helped that YOU ?
[22:58:30] Coraline: As a maintainer you are already responsible for managing community behavior.
[22:58:38] eam: maybe I'll delete the comment and give them a warning, maybe I'll block them -- the response entirely depends on the details of the situation
[22:58:48] Ox0dea: Papierkorb: Retribution is good for the soul.
[22:58:49] Papierkorb: Coraline: the "call this number every night 5 times: 123-456-789" message is still out there, with or without
[22:58:50] eam: maybe I'll decide it's not offensive1
[22:58:52] Coraline: People are less likely to be malicious if they know that there are consequences to their actions.
[22:59:00] smathy: Coraline, surely you can't be suggesting that MINASWAN doesn't already cover doxxing?
[22:59:03] Coraline: That's human nature.
[22:59:04] eam: Coraline: I don't think that's true
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[22:59:41] eam: I think doxxing someone would already be cause to expell someone from this community
[22:59:44] Coraline: We have fundamentally different experiences of human nature then.
[23:00:04] smathy: Different world views.
[23:00:05] Coraline: Can you provide an example of someone being expelled from the community?
[23:00:17] Coraline: And can you tell me exactly how that would happen?
[23:00:27] Papierkorb: Coraline: if anyone really thinks that there are no consequences whatsoever in any case, then those are wrong. People are constantly reported to the police here for swinging right-wing paroles on Facebook. Some go to jail for that. There are consequences.
[23:00:35] eam: I have no examples of drama because I avoid it
[23:01:03] Coraline: Avoiding problems definitely make them go away.
[23:01:06] eam: but I am confident that the rather extremely progressive ruby community would not tolerate that kind of egregious behavior (do you have examples to the contrary?)
[23:01:25] eam: I'd be super interested if you had an example of a ruby committer doxing someone
[23:01:26] smathy: I have no examples because I've never EVER seen anyone report a doxxing by a core contributor to any project I'm involved with.
[23:01:42] smathy: s/core // really
[23:02:06] eam: the ban list in #ruby is constantly full, so yes, there are many examples of people being expelled for various things
[23:02:10] Coraline: Doxing is an example of something that happened to me. It was an anonymous gg'er
[23:02:40] smathy: So, irrelevant to the discussion of whether a CoC helps create a welcoming culture then?
[23:03:04] Coraline: It's an example of how communities can go wrong.
[23:03:27] Coraline: It's an example of people "being human"
[23:03:29] eam: well, if it's an anonymous person it's not part of any community
[23:03:29] Papierkorb: smathy: "Welcome to this fabolous world! First, read this and this, sign here and there ..and now never say anything out of fear for having tripped a mine" That's what a CoC feels like to me
[23:03:33] Coraline: "Being an adult"
[23:04:01] smathy: *inhuman perhaps
[23:04:02] Coraline: If you're afraid of violating a CoC then you have bigger problems.
[23:04:12] eam: that's patently untrue
[23:04:12] Coraline: Or a persecution complex.
[23:04:22] Papierkorb: Coraline: I could turn that statement around and it'd still make sense, sorry :|
[23:04:34] Ox0dea: > Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies ??? "God damn it, you've got to be kind."
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[23:04:46] eam: there are plenty of examples of people who've been unfairly persecuted, whether due to mistake or malevolent intent
[23:04:46] Ox0dea: I think the CoC should just be that line from Vonnegut.
[23:04:54] eam: Coraline: I can give you a concrete example, by the way
[23:05:15] Coraline: Should we take murder laws off the books because one innocent person is in jail?
[23:05:17] Papierkorb: eam: If Coraline does not want to hear, my bookmark list is always interested
[23:05:20] eam: have you read Jon Ronson's "So You've Been Publically Shamed?"
[23:05:39] eam: it covers, among other things, the "dongle" incident. Do any of you remember that?
[23:05:44] Papierkorb: eam: as /query is fine too if you prefer so
[23:05:49] smathy: Papierkorb, yep, or to me: "Welcome to this community you untrustworthy probable miscreant. Sign this so we know you won't bring your asshole shit in with you."
[23:05:50] eam: Papierkorb: happy to share here
[23:05:51] Papierkorb: Oh god, that one
[23:05:52] Coraline: Yep, Adria Richards is a friend of mine.
[23:06:05] Papierkorb: The dongle stuff was beyond redicolous
[23:06:08] eam: ok, well, the guy sitting *next to* the dongle guy was a coworker of mine
[23:06:11] eam: he said nothing
[23:06:13] Papierkorb: it destroyed two mans families
[23:06:28] eam: he was front and center in the picture that made headlines
[23:06:54] eam: everyone around my office was reading that and said "look at that bearded guy <terrible things>"
[23:07:21] smathy: Papierkorb, and also: "Welcome to our community you poor, downtrodden outcast. If you ever feel offended, rather than trying to resolve it like a normal human being, here's a giant stick to beat the offender and maintainers of this project with."
[23:07:23] Papierkorb: eam: I really felt sorry for those guys.
[23:07:30] eam: the reaction to everyone, including to Adria, was entirely unfair
[23:07:46] eam: I felt sorry for everyone involved
[23:08:05] eam: so when we're talking about sending a signal
[23:08:24] eam: I share the concern Ox0dea and others raise about appropriate response to transgressions
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[23:08:35] eam: and if you haven't read that book BTW, I very strongly recommend it
[23:08:46] eam: it's primarily about internet shaming culture
[23:08:48] Papierkorb: smathy: "Welcome, you're probably a bad person and I mistrust you because I can. [...]"
[23:09:06] eam: it mostly focuses on Justine Sacco
[23:09:10] smathy: It's like an NDA.
[23:09:49] eam: (the lady who tweeted the AIDS joke which got misconstrued)
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[23:11:48] Papierkorb: smathy: "I think you are a bad person. You better don't step on anyones toes, because before you can apologize for doing something accidental, I'll kick you out and maybe dox you too. ~" ??? Referencing the fact that many people have been doxxed by such 'SJWs' and lost everything for a joke taken out of context, or something stupid a person would've explained later and apologized for after been talked to.
[23:12:10] Papierkorb: smathy: To me, it's a fight (Let's call it a fight for the moment) no one can win.
[23:12:37] Ox0dea: The only winning move is not to play.
[23:12:41] eam: there are shitty people in any group. Usually whoever you side with depends on who you most sympathize with -- (which is why I try really hard not to pick sides)
[23:12:42] Papierkorb: Coraline: Is it fair to live in fear?
[23:12:59] Papierkorb: Coraline: In general
[23:13:19] eam: Papierkorb: it's reality for some people, and I don't think it's constructive to say "just don't"
[23:13:35] Papierkorb: eam: Not getting at that, at all actually
[23:13:36] smathy: The "incorrectly prosecuted" thing isn't even an issue for me, I doubt that would happen much anyway, and if it did then it probably would under the existing MINASWAN implied CoC anyway. The issue for me is that there's zero evidence that the existing mechanisms for the Ruby project to maintain a welcoming culture isn't working perfectly well as it is, so why have a fix to something that isn't broken.
[23:13:53] eam: smathy: I'd agree with that
[23:13:56] Papierkorb: smathy: Agree!
[23:14:20] eam: if we had an example of odious behavior not being handled properly that would be one thing
[23:14:26] smathy: Like of all my issues with this, that's 90% of it. It's like adding code to an app which serves no purpose.
[23:14:32] Papierkorb: smathy: on the "don't fix if it's not proven to be broken" part at least ~
[23:14:33] smathy: It just adds a burden with no gain.
[23:14:52] smathy: Right, exactly eam
[23:14:55] Coraline: smathy: can I ask if you are a white male?
[23:15:04] Papierkorb: What does it matter?!
[23:15:17] smathy: Coraline, yes you can, and yes I am.
[23:15:22] Coraline: Because what works for the majority does not work for everyone.
[23:15:32] eam: well, white males aren't a majority
[23:15:40] Coraline: In OSS? Yes they are.
[23:15:41] eam: (though, I do get your point)
[23:15:43] smathy: Wow, sexist and racist in one go.
[23:15:50] eam: Coraline: no, they aren't
[23:16:09] Ox0dea: Guys, I'm outta popcorns.
[23:16:24] Coraline: Between 2 and 10 percent of OSS contributors are women.
[23:16:33] eam: and they rather especially aren't the majority of the Ruby dev team
[23:16:39] Coraline: Does that not indicate that there's a problem?
[23:16:54] eam: Coraline: it indicates there's a cultural problem, yes
[23:17:01] eam: in the way we raise our girls
[23:17:09] Coraline: And if a woman tells you that there's a problem, are you really going to answer "works on my machine"?
[23:17:11] Papierkorb: Coraline: you did not answer my question btw about the living in fear stuff. So, no, I don't think it's fair to have the burden of living in fear. So, I don't think that a stupid joke, inappropriate word or anything, should result in an instant and pretty much permanent damage to a persons life. That's criminal. And that's what I hear 'SJWs' do (note the '' there) more often than not.
[23:17:21] smathy: Coraline, why is the gender or skin color majority relevant to your viewpoint or this discussion? You think I announce that when asking to get involved in a project?
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[23:17:46] Coraline: Because it colors your experience of the world.
[23:18:19] Coraline: You can't pretend that we live and work in a society that is colorblind and genderblind.
[23:18:48] Coraline: Well you can but you'd be wrong.
[23:18:51] Ox0dea: Let's write FizzBuzz in C+=. https://github.com/ErisBlastar/cplusequality
[23:18:51] smathy: Coraline, so you assume, but even if it did, are you now claiming that actually you DO have evidence of abuse or harassment being systemically handled poorly by the ruby project?
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[23:19:12] smathy: Coraline, I'm trying to work out which of my comments you think is mistaken because of my biases?
[23:19:49] Coraline: I have not personally experienced harassment by contributors to the Ruby project. I have personally experienced harassment by members of the Ruby community.
[23:20:00] eam: so've I!
[23:20:01] Coraline: I have never been murdered. I still want murder to be illegal.
[23:20:07] smathy: Coraline, which the Ruby project adopting the CoC would have ZERO impact on.
[23:20:29] smathy: Coraline, so you're acknowledging that the current approach of the Ruby project is, as far as you know, working perfectly well.
[23:20:38] smathy: ...and yet you proposed that it adopt your CoC.
[23:20:41] eam: speaking of bias, BTW, we're somewhat glossing over the fact that the ruby dev team is not primarily white males
[23:20:48] eam: can we all agree on that?
[23:20:59] Ox0dea: eam: Japanese is advanced white.
[23:21:01] smathy: eam, I have no evidence, and don't care.
[23:21:36] eam: smathy: I don't care either, but it's relevant to the claims Coraline is leveling
[23:21:39] smathy: Coraline, your murder point is moot because there's MUCH evidence that without a law to the contrary, assholes will murder people.
[23:21:55] smathy: Coraline, there's no evidence that the Ruby project doesn't handle assholes appropriately right now.
[23:22:09] Coraline: Do you think that #ruby is worse off with rules?
[23:22:16] smathy: eam, I don't think so, she's accusing me of a biased world view.
[23:22:24] Coraline: Did you prefer it the way it was before?
[23:22:31] Coraline: Should we have mods?
[23:22:49] smathy: Coraline, I don't participate in #ruby because of the rules, so yes - I think it's worse off.
[23:22:54] eam: well, I was banned from #ruby before, because IIRC apeiros said something positive about gun control and I disagreed ;)
[23:23:19] eam: but some moderation is necessary, so I'd have to take a rather unsatisfying little bit of good, little bit of bad
[23:23:47] eam: absolutely there are OSS communities with very bad moderation
[23:23:57] Coraline: Would you prefer that mods operate according to rules, or not?
[23:24:01] eam: (bad as in strict and oppressive, not bad as in permitting misbehavior)
[23:24:01] smathy: Coraline, you shouldn't pursue this line of questioning though. I'm a white male, you will never be convinced by my personal experience of rules/no-rules in internet forums.
[23:24:14] eam: Coraline: I don't think it's particularly relevant
[23:24:19] Papierkorb: Coraline: They're currently operating in a sane fashion, so why pretend to fix what ain't broke?
[23:24:33] smathy: Coraline, I'd prefer that mods handle things which are hard for people to /IGNORE - which is what I do as a mod in #ror.
[23:24:53] eam: Coraline: I simply avoid communities which have poor management -- I didn't hang out in #ruby for like a year or so IIRC, until #ruby-lang collapsed into it
[23:25:19] Papierkorb: Isn't good moderation more about acting as spam filter than to 'prevent evil [citation needed]' ?
[23:25:28] eam: (management is decent now btw, no current complaints)
[23:25:47] smathy: Coraline, but really, I've not experienced your life and I have no idea how hard, wearing, upsetting or frustrating it is - so seriously, this is not a great line of questions for me. Abuse/harassment comprises a very minute part of my experience.
[23:26:11] smathy: I'm sure I have a very different tolerance for it than you.
[23:26:32] Coraline: smathy: I can't say the same, so I would hope that knowing that my experience and therefore perspective is different would mean something.
[23:27:04] smathy: Coraline, it does. I'm not questioning that the problem exists. I'm questioning whether your solution is good and/or necessary.
[23:27:09] Coraline: If people who regularly experience harassment support an idea, and those who do not oppose it, there are reasons.
[23:27:24] Coraline: And people who experience it should be listened to.
[23:27:32] eam: everyone should be listened to
[23:27:55] Papierkorb: Coraline: I think everyone participating atm is listening, else those people would not .. participate, no?
[23:28:21] eam: I will say, I have experienced a *different* level of harassment over the course of my life, as my attitudes and approaches to life have adjusted
[23:28:30] mg^: Personally I think it's better to have everything in the open, including things that I am uncomfortable with, because it allows the truth of circumstance to stand out. That is, if my opponents are free to speak, I know who they are and have some amount of control over it. If I can force them "underground" with rules, I do not believe that they simply go away, they just form a clique that continues their old behavior in the
[23:28:30] mg^: background without my knowledge, and then I have no control.
[23:28:32] Coraline: You can talk over others without listening. You can listen without hearing what someone is saying or empathizing with them.
[23:28:57] smathy: Coraline, that's like saying that the families of crimes are the best qualified to draft the legislation.
[23:29:08] smathy: s/families/victims/
[23:29:15] Papierkorb: Coraline: if you go into a discussion with that line of thought, then why bother? That's dismissing everyone not agreeing as "not listener"
[23:29:54] Coraline: I bother because I'm trying to make things better.
[23:30:01] eam: Coraline: I appreciate the effort!
[23:30:09] Coraline: This is one way that I believe we can make things better.
[23:30:30] smathy: Coraline, yep, a noble goal.
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[23:30:57] smathy: Coraline, but when there's no evidence that the Ruby project has any problems regarding harassment then you wouldn't be making things better.
[23:31:16] smathy: At best you'd be keeping things the same.
[23:31:35] Coraline: You need a CoC before problems emerge.
[23:31:40] Papierkorb: Also, there are many studies who 'found out' that if people are told that they're supervised by some 3rd party, that they behave differently than if they were not
[23:31:51] smathy: Coraline, now you REALLY sound like a politician.
[23:31:57] Ox0dea: Coraline: Can I ask what compelled you to submit the issue to the bug tracker?
[23:32:04] smathy: A pre-emptive strike.
[23:32:07] Ox0dea: My condolences if you take umbrage with the word "submit".
[23:32:10] Papierkorb: And yes, I do see the CoC like being a supervision
[23:32:46] Coraline: I want the community that I'm part of to be deliberate and open about its core values and commit to enforcing them.
[23:32:58] Papierkorb: (sorry btw for the ton of grammatical mistakes in my messages. Will get better .. I hope..)
[23:33:19] Coraline: I don't think that's too much to ask.
[23:33:26] Ox0dea: It's superfluous.
[23:33:32] Ox0dea: Why codify the status quo?
[23:33:41] Papierkorb: Coraline: I think we're being pretty open right now ..?
[23:34:28] smathy: Coraline, I'd recommend that you find projects which have demonstrated that they struggle with handling harassment or abuse properly, and make your CoC recommendation to them. Until then it's all just a bit _the emperor's new clothes_.
[23:34:31] Papierkorb: Coraline: To new ideas, which we discuss and, from my POV seems like more disagree on it than agree. That's fine, that doesn't change if the idea is good or not.
[23:35:00] Coraline: https://twitter.com/deeterius/status/689953374117216257
[23:35:01] Coraline: https://twitter.com/deeterius/status/689953611309301760
[23:35:42] Papierkorb: You're being offended .. by a troll
[23:35:48] smathy: Coraline, are you making a point? I think we all knew that trolls exist on the internet.
[23:36:12] Coraline: These are the people who agree with you. Does that give you pause?
[23:36:33] smathy: Coraline, he doesn't agree with me.
[23:36:46] Papierkorb: Coraline: All murderers eat bread => Everyone who eats bread is a murderer
[23:36:53] Papierkorb: Coraline: That does not work
[23:37:16] smathy: Coraline, I didn't tell you to grow balls, nor did I comment on your fatness or beauty.
[23:37:23] Ox0dea: "Codes of conduct are eating the world."
[23:37:27] eam: Coraline: the point made by that troll is very different from what people are saying in here
[23:37:30] Ox0dea: It used to be software.
[23:38:07] Papierkorb: Coraline: And that's an idiot. Who talks crap in the persons own little world, litterally yelling at a (twitter) wall. That's a person you can report to twitter, ignore, and move on
[23:38:42] Coraline: When you get shit like that all day every day it wears you down.
[23:39:06] eam: this is why I often stop reading twitter
[23:39:09] Coraline: That's my world.
[23:39:13] eam: doesn't have to be
[23:39:16] smathy: I might have to take back what I said earlier about not having experienced the sort of harassment that you have Coraline - if that's an example of it.
[23:39:20] Papierkorb: And how would've a CoC bettered that? That's not even a Softwareproject, it's some asshat writing stuff on a completely unrelated medium
[23:39:32] smathy: I assumed you meant much worse things than that.
[23:39:34] Coraline: A CoC is a single tool.
[23:39:36] eam: smathy: yeah, I think we've all experienced this sort of thing
[23:39:38] Coraline: smathy: I do
[23:39:49] eam: Coraline I'm sure experiences more due to her role
[23:40:13] Papierkorb: smathy: I just remembered those students talking about 'safe spaces' in universities in the US. *shudder*
[23:40:15] smathy: Of course, stick your head up....
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[23:40:45] smathy: Papierkorb, culture gap I'm afraid, no idea what that meant.
[23:42:11] Coraline: Papierkorb: how would it be different if deeterius stated in his Twitter profile that he was a core contributor to project x?
[23:42:17] eam: smathy: aggressive offense taking in universities, used as a tool to manipulate others
[23:42:58] Ox0dea: I think it boils down to the simple fact that offense cannot be given. You must take it, and it is in one's best interest to find the power to not.
[23:43:27] eam: Ox0dea: you've just hit on the primary insight that reduced the amount of abuse I encounter on the internet and in life!
[23:43:35] smathy: Coraline, actually you really lose me entirely with this whole cross-channel persecution thing.
[23:43:47] Ox0dea: Just don't fucking be offended. What good ever comes of it?
[23:43:50] Papierkorb: Coraline: An idiot is an idiot. But that is making stuff up now.
[23:43:54] smathy: Coraline, like if someone tweets something you disagree with, then they should be cast out of an OSS project.
[23:44:13] smathy: Coraline, like the thing I referred to earlier with the Opal project.
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[23:44:28] eam: FWIW I think it's a lot more interesting to look at abuse and harassment at a more individual level than gender. Because I know some men who are perpetual targets of abuse, and some women who rarely if ever encounter it (and then, only among rare trolls who strike everywhere)
[23:44:30] Papierkorb: Coraline: If a project maintainer does that? Good to know that you should avoid that project, because if the maintainer is that childish, you should better not trust the project. Great, one thing less to worry about.
[23:44:56] Papierkorb: Coraline: But I'd be suprised if anyone did say anything on that scale tbh
[23:45:45] eam: I guess it's not "rare" trolls who strike everywhere, but it's ubiquitous at least
[23:46:05] Papierkorb: Because, still, it's a troll. the author is not hiding the fact, instead, shoves it right into the viewers face
[23:46:12] smathy: Ox0dea, yeah, I think it's an important distinction to draw between someone being offended by something, and actual harassment.
[23:46:21] eam: I don't lose much sleep over people who join #ruby and spam horrible things until they're banned
[23:46:41] Papierkorb: eam: anyone who does has serious issues, and they don't stem from IRC
[23:46:41] smathy: eam, "much"?
[23:47:01] eam: smathy: I admit, I think once or twice I stayed up a bit later than I would have to read some of it ;)
[23:47:14] smathy: People who do that will do it whether a CoC exists or not, and so too maintainers will act whether a CoC exists or not.
[23:47:20] eam: clinically interesting
[23:47:51] smathy: eam, ah, makes sense. I took "lose sleep" more like later on, after the events, you were kept awake thinking back on them ;)
[23:48:32] smathy: Tossing and turning, why oh why does TrollH8er69 not like me?
[23:48:52] eam: personal stuff is different though
[23:48:52] Coraline: Papierkorb: so if a Ruby core member harassed me, I should start writing in another language?
[23:49:02] Papierkorb: Coraline: If if if
[23:49:21] smathy: "Maybe A55Fukka was right, maybe PHP *is* better than Ruby."
[23:49:26] Papierkorb: Coraline: Did anyone harass you of the core devs as of yet?
[23:49:33] Papierkorb: Coraline: No? Think about that for a moment.
[23:49:38] eam: I've been harassed in projects at work, which undermined my ability to deliver -- and yes, I switched teams to a new product
[23:50:04] eam: but I've also been harassed by OSS developers on a stack I used for work and I didn't stop using the stack because it was largely irrelevant (I didn't need to interact with them)
[23:50:10] eam: so I would say it depends
[23:51:00] eam: the trouble is, reasonable and measured perspectives like that are hard to build outrage around. In part because they're so damn empowering
[23:51:24] smathy: Coraline, you'd trust using a language if, known to all, a core contributor to the language spent their spare time insulting people as Deeterius T. Troll ?
[23:51:53] eam: I have also petitioned the community at large, when exposed to egregiously poor behavior (at work, or in OSS) -- but only if I felt like it would be constructive to do so
[23:52:05] eam: often it isn't
[23:52:29] smathy: ...and the question remains, would a CoC change any of that situation?
[23:52:44] Ox0dea: Artificially righteous indignation is the best medicine.
[23:52:55] eam: I'll tell you, every employer has essentially the contents of that CoC in their HR manual and it does not matter for shit
[23:53:14] smathy: "Oh, but look, Deeterius T. Troll is clearly in breach of your own CoC." "Oh, yeah, you're right. Let me fix that: `git rm COC.md && git push`
[23:54:20] Ox0dea: Nice commit.
[23:54:39] smathy: Heh, forgot a step.
[23:55:06] Papierkorb: Wait a moment. Just found the opals issue 'offending tweet'. someone said his mind, and then people try to shoot him down for it instead of trying to discuss it? Reall?!
[23:55:22] smathy: FFS, you're just reading that now? :)
[23:55:32] smathy: Sorry, I didn't mean to harass you.
[23:55:40] Papierkorb: smathy: I only did read the GH issue when it was unfolding back then
[23:55:41] Coraline: Elia continually makes and retweets transphobic comments.
[23:55:51] eam: Coraline: link one?
[23:56:01] Papierkorb: Coraline: So .. okay? And you're offended by that why?
[23:56:06] smathy: Coraline, so in your CoC I guess that's covered with the "and other activities" catch-all?
[23:56:13] Papierkorb: Coraline: That's like me being offended by the mere existence of the right-wing party in my country
[23:56:13] Coraline: I'm not digging through his timeline for you.
[23:56:28] Ox0dea: > continually
[23:56:44] eam: Coraline: sure. I just tend to disbelieve those kinds of claims because when I bother to go digging myself I more often than not find no such evidence
[23:56:57] Coraline: That's not my problem.
[23:57:24] eam: no, you have no obligation to convince me that's true. I'm just letting you know you're not offering a compelling argument
[23:57:32] Ox0dea: In any case, Twitter drama should not have migrated to a software project's issue tracker.
[23:57:34] Coraline: I'm not arguing.
[23:57:44] eam: I won't argue that point, for sure ;)
[23:58:00] Papierkorb: People even began to call some people bosses who expressed anti-immigrant views (I mean really really right-wingy stuff, propaganda). Great, now they're expelled, lost everything, and that will teach them what? Oh yeah, that life sucks and that those immigrants are at fault. Better not talk to them, you may end up in a discussion!
[23:58:18] Coraline: I don't see a point in continuing this.
[23:58:29] Coraline: No one is going to change anyone's mind.
[23:58:38] Ox0dea: That's the spirit!
[23:58:45] Coraline: You can disrespect or devalue my work if you want to.
[23:58:51] smathy: I can never get into the mindset people like you express in situations like this Coraline, like I try to imagine reading something about white people, or males, or atheists, or Australians, or people with freckles, or red hair, or just about any distinctive feature of myself - and I honestly cannot, no matter how hard I try, conjure up even a modicum of offense.
[23:58:52] Coraline: I'm not stopping.
[23:58:58] mg^: You think a CoC *will* change people's minds?
[23:59:08] smathy: I don't know how you do it, I don't know how you become offended when reading the words of a stranger on the internet.
[23:59:14] Papierkorb: Coraline: Huh? ... I did not 'devalue' any of your work (of which I know nothing)
[23:59:16] eam: Coraline: you shouldn't feel like you have to stop, and for what it's worth I don't disrespet your work even if I disagree with it
[23:59:45] Papierkorb: Coraline: and in fact, I don't think anyone else in here did or even intended to
[23:59:57] eam: I'm actually rather gratified that we had such a civil discussion