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#ruby-offtopic - 28 April 2016

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[00:00:18] smathy: LOL :) My Grump Old Man Syndrome precedes me ;)
[00:00:20] smathy: [17:20:19] crystal77: How feasible is it to learn Ruby, if we don't use it at work? Everything is in Python, and my interest is being a Rails dev.
[00:03:42] Radar: There are groups of people calling themselves programmers who only learn what they're being paid to already know?!?!?!? <- yes
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[03:32:34] eam: hxegon_afk: what do you mean "without nesting term multiplexers?"
[03:33:28] eam: I think the short answer might be "no, because terminal attaching/detatching is considerably invasive and the right way to do it is to allocate a pty via screen/tmux"
[03:33:59] eam: Radar: way, way yes
[03:34:28] Radar: ACTION waves
[03:34:31] Radar: hi I'm one of these people
[03:35:14] eam: not in it for passion or whatever the hell the kids are about these days? ;)
[03:35:41] hxegon_AFK: eam: you're probably right. Maybe I can make a tmux or screen config that cuts it down to just session functionality.
[03:36:38] eam: that's the right thing to do. There are ways to hack a re-attach but they're very application dependent and essentially are a process like "hook up gdb and insert code to manipulate the descriptors"
[03:36:51] eam: which, yeah
[03:56:16] baweaver: eam: you don't love to code all the time!?
[03:57:48] hxegon: but c0de is lyfe eam!
[04:00:30] Radar: What? you don't spend every waking hour coding? :O
[04:01:04] baweaver: Radar: I know right?
[04:01:25] baweaver: next he'll say something lame about abandoning all his open source projects for family
[04:01:45] Radar: (which has worked out really well tbqh)
[04:02:47] hxegon: Work-Life balance? Of course I have that! I work 80 hours a week, and then I go home and craft artisian JS until I fall asleep over my laptop. Work-Lyfe.
[04:29:36] baweaver: Radar: ah good
[04:37:49] eam: I used to do projects, before the kids
[04:38:00] eam: now I have better things to do
[04:39:23] eam: also, like, if learning something *for work* is gonna have some huge stupid payout I think I'm gonna do that instead of making some random crap
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[07:06:45] baweaver: https://twitter.com/keystonelemur/status/725581714043498496 - more art stuffs.
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[12:20:19] al2o3-cr: bacon sarnies over the pond?
[12:20:43] Ox0dea: al2o3-cr: You're in the weeds now, partner.
[12:21:18] al2o3-cr: Ox0dea: red or brown?
[12:21:34] Ox0dea: al2o3-cr: No.
[12:23:49] al2o3-cr: just got some, flying goose brand (extra garlic)
[12:25:49] al2o3-cr: thee best, i'll tell thee
[12:26:02] Ox0dea: Well, do it.
[12:26:25] al2o3-cr: and do it well, cocker
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[15:18:27] dfockler: DeBot: !hangman ruby
[15:18:27] DeBot: ␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣ [] 0/12 (ruby)
[15:18:34] dfockler: DeBot: afgp
[15:18:34] DeBot: ␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣ [afgp] 4/12 (ruby)
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[15:23:05] smathy: DeBot, net
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[15:23:30] smathy: DeBot, ros
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[15:24:04] smathy: DeBot, =?
[15:24:04] DeBot: ␣Rb::␣RbServer#verbose= [afgpnt?] 7/12 (ruby)
[15:24:07] DeBot: DRb::DRbServer#verbose= [afgpnt?] 7/12 (ruby) You won!
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[16:46:55] hxegon: Anyone have experience getting gnuplot to work on OS X?
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[20:05:50] al2o3-cr: DeBot: !hangman ruby
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[20:10:48] al2o3-cr: tomato soup, chicken soup any kind of soup
[20:11:16] havenwood: al2o3-cr: cereal?
[20:11:21] havenwood: breakfast soup.
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[20:13:48] al2o3-cr: only the milk part :)
[20:18:44] al2o3-cr: integer milk brilliant
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[20:20:24] al2o3-cr: you're a right pair you three, if ever a saw one
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[21:10:39] smathy: DeBot, i#o
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[21:11:35] smathy: DeBot, gdbms
[21:11:35] DeBot: SDBM#store [anuig] 5/12 (ruby) You won!
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[21:14:05] smathy: DeBot, !hangman ruby 6
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[21:14:12] smathy: DeBot, aeiou#
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[21:14:58] smathy: DeBot, mthd
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[21:56:17] eam: Radar: btw, @3ameam is me -- in case twitter is a crappy medium for my question. Saw a friend of mine discussing your latest blog and I'm really curious how internships don't fit that use case for jr devs
[21:57:11] eam: one kinda big drawback is that they tend to only have a pipeline from college, but part of that is because the non-college pipeline into tech is via ops
[21:57:43] eam: and ops does tend to slurp up green recruits -- mostly because it involves covering shifts that no one wants to cover
[21:58:12] eam: (that's how I got started)
[22:23:30] smathy: Maybe Radar mentioned it after where I stopped reading, but one of the issues with doing the whole mentoring thing in a hot market like we have now is that you no sooner get them up to a decent, productive level and they leave.
[22:24:09] smathy: Often happens roughly 1 minute after they reach the break-even point.
[22:25:27] baweaver: then give them reason to stay
[22:25:41] baweaver: or consider what happens when you don't and they stay
[22:25:53] smathy: ...not saying it's a deal breaker, or there aren't ways around it, etc., but as a solution to a hot talent market it's definitely an issue with the "hire and train your own juniors" as a solution.
[22:26:19] smathy: ...especially re that Julia Claven graph.
[22:26:38] baweaver: You're effectively throwing more water into the talent pool for later if nothing else
[22:26:56] baweaver: besides, you have the same issue with most of your seniors as well
[22:27:13] baweaver: poaching already happens at those levels, so it shouldn't be seen as a deal breaker when the same happens for Juniors
[22:27:50] smathy: ...but seniors are never in that "salary < value" point, unless they were silly when they initially took the job.
[22:28:29] smathy: My point is just that if your plan, in a hot market, is to hire juniors and train them yourself to the point where you're getting more value than they're costing, then you might not like what happens after that break-even point.
[22:30:58] baweaver: that's fair
[22:31:16] baweaver: It works great for Cerner in KC, Epic in Wyoming, and Sony in Waterloo
[22:31:39] smathy: Heh, probably for other reasons ;)
[22:31:40] baweaver: Cerner gets the additional benefit of stuck in the midwest mentality
[22:31:54] baweaver: mainly based around family being there.
[22:32:00] smathy: Geographical isolation is a great "vendor" lock-in ;)
[22:34:11] smathy: From where I sit, taking location out of the equation for your hiring is such a remedy for a hot market that it's a little surprising that it hasn't been more fully embraced. I can only think because many decision makers are still entirely unaware of how big a difference there is between the good techie and the great one.
[22:43:29] baweaver: remote work has yet to be embraced
[22:43:38] baweaver: smathy: relocate to SF, it's the only way!
[22:44:34] smathy: Heh :) No, I've got some decent looking options starting to settle out.
[22:44:59] baweaver: but..... but SF!
[22:45:47] baweaver: I doubt I stay here forever
[22:46:51] smathy: I've visited a few times, it's nice enough, but I prefer nicer weather.
[22:47:07] baweaver: fair enough
[22:48:07] smathy: Also, traffic, blergh.
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[23:01:58] eam: smathy: in our experience interns tend to stick around for plenty long
[23:02:50] eam: we offer 'em a full time position after they're done, they take it, everyone's happy (and if they don't, honestly, that's fine because they're generally always productive)
[23:03:31] eam: that's the other side of a hot market: wages are suuuuper inflated (300k is the new 100k) and so even if you hire an intern at 100k/yr and they do half the work output of a sr eng, it's worth it
[23:03:44] eam: because your actual revenue per employee is like 500k or some shit
[23:04:12] eam: eg http://www.businessinsider.com/revenue-per-employee-charts-are-a-fascinating-way-to-judge-the-health-of-tech-companies-2015-4
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[23:05:23] smathy: eam, yep, interns are a different thing to hiring juniors. Although from there on you lost me, $100k for an intern, I don't know what market you're in.
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[23:13:44] eam: SF/SV my friend
[23:14:21] eam: we actually started up a program for folks even more jr than interns
[23:15:11] eam: because even when you're recruiting sophomores, the bar's so damn high a lot of people aren't able to make it
[23:15:23] eam: even for folks with 0 years work experience
[23:17:50] smathy: Ok, interesting. That's not what I'm seeing in that market as I'm looking for things.
[23:19:27] eam: spread is probably 60-120k
[23:19:51] eam: for hiring someone for a summer who's currently pursuing a degree
[23:20:14] eam: (so you're gonna spend like 15-30k for those 3 months)
[23:20:27] smathy: I see, that's insane.
[23:20:47] eam: keep in mind, companies that do hiring referral bonuses often price them in the 5 digits
[23:20:58] eam: eg I send your resume in, maybe I get $10k
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[23:22:23] smathy: I still can't see how an intern is worth $100k to anyone.
[23:24:19] smathy: ...obviously in a market like SV there are very different economies at play than I'm used to.
[23:24:47] smathy: ACTION reiterates the efficacy of hiring remote
[23:24:49] eam: you saw that business insider chart?
[23:25:19] eam: if you're making things at a profit of roughly $1m per employee work output you can afford to pay your employees a shitload
[23:25:26] smathy: eam, sure, but the choice isn't "hire an intern or hire no one" it's "hire an intern or hire an experienced dev"
[23:25:33] eam: no it's not!
[23:25:36] smathy: I'd pay triple an intern every day of the week.
[23:25:44] eam: smathy: right, and people do
[23:25:47] eam: 300k -> sr dev
[23:25:57] eam: but everyone's already hiring as hard as they can
[23:26:09] eam: open headcount everywhere
[23:26:11] smathy: Right, in a "must relocate to SF" framework.
[23:26:20] eam: even then - we have a ton of remotes
[23:26:26] eam: as does google, as does ...
[23:26:36] eam: hell I'm basically a remote
[23:26:43] smathy: Not really, google has people who work from home sometimes.
[23:26:54] smathy: ...they're still in the same market as their premises.
[23:27:00] eam: google has satellite offices
[23:27:57] smathy: Unfortunately "premises" is ambiguous, but yes, I meant all of their locations.
[23:28:39] havenwood: ACTION is unsure whether to be disappointed to make less than interns
[23:29:38] smathy: ...maybe it's not too late to be one ;)
[23:29:49] havenwood: anyone looking for interns? :P
[23:30:07] smathy: Yes, but I pay mentorship and a laptop.
[23:30:19] havenwood: I'm enjoying being in LA at the moment. :) I guess SF isn't too very far away.
[23:30:47] eam: havenwood: you could command two to three times an intern's pay ...
[23:32:28] smathy: ...and enjoy the same or worse accommodation for two or three times your current rent/mortgage ;)
[23:32:50] eam: havenwood: smathy: This writeup matches what I know about these large employers: https://blog.step.com/2016/04/08/an-open-source-project-for-tech-salaries/
[23:34:11] eam: you have to kinda keep in mind that equity growth fudges the takehome (your equity comp will double if the company doubles) but it's about right in terms of what to expect
[23:37:12] eam: most of the ruby shops are startup-y and a lot of the comp is funny money options, but there are a few people who would need a principal ruby person with internals knowledge and would hire at the level 3 pay scale for that easy
[23:41:29] eam: this is actually a pretty fantastically accurate account of how things work: http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii/
[23:41:50] eam: you've gotta hunt around for the people who think they need you, and be able to say "no" to climb the ladder
[23:42:09] smathy: eam, yeah, I know how it works at Google. Unless you're a renowned engineer in the world, or being acquired, no one walks in off the street to an E5/6 though. You'll start at E4 max, which is $150k in cash.
[23:42:35] smathy: No idea how to read that re interns though.
[23:43:24] eam: renowned can be a lot less than you might think, and work experience at another shop counts
[23:43:33] eam: you can't poach engineers if you only hire at e4
[23:43:54] eam: I've lost engineers to most of these
[23:44:03] eam: I know what they got :)
[23:44:14] smathy: ...or what they told you they got.
[23:44:34] eam: I'm not management
[23:44:36] smathy: ...but sure, in a hot market I can imagine that.
[23:44:49] smathy: ...my information is from a few years ago now.
[23:44:54] eam: I'm friends with them :)
[23:45:05] eam: and I've seen similar offers for myself, personally, so
[23:45:24] eam: 'cuz I mean, when your pals go, the first thing that happens is the recrutier talks to you
[23:45:55] smathy: So even if it's $300k in cash, so 3x this mythical six-figure intern, I'd still pay that over an intern all day.
[23:46:31] Radar: smathy: it sounds like you think hiring these seniors is easy.
[23:46:41] eam: sure, of course, but what you're doing is actually taking *both* if you can
[23:46:54] smathy: ...especially if I was already a fairly sought after first job as all four of those employers are.
[23:47:01] eam: you're hiring the sr dude as well as however many interns you can snatch up
[23:47:07] Radar: (I got about 3hrs proper sleep last night so debating hot topics on the internet may not be a great idea0
[23:47:26] eam: Radar: I got hot takes whenever you're awake ;)
[23:47:27] smathy: Radar, I think it's pretty easy for google and facebook if they're throwing $300k at them, yes.
[23:48:03] Radar: smathy: If someone offered me a $300k job without having to relocate to SF I would not say no ;)
[23:48:33] eam: smathy: a decade and a half ago Microsoft basically hired me off the street with no work experience for around 60k
[23:48:35] smathy: Nor I, not relocating isn't an option though ;)
[23:48:44] eam: which was more like 90k in today's numbers
[23:49:07] Radar: 300k buys a lot of please and thank yous.
[23:49:23] Radar: I got hired at my first Rails job in 2007 at (iirc) 55k.
[23:49:23] eam: and by off the street I mean my resume was 6 months long and I had a high school diploma
[23:49:28] smathy: eam, ok, and in 1995 I was hired by Bigpond for $52k for my first dev job with no degree.
[23:49:54] smathy: eam, neither of those is an internship, and neither is $100k.
[23:50:27] eam: right, what Microsoft does is kinda super interesting: they have a huge contingency headcount
[23:50:43] eam: so they can easily get rid of you if you don't work out, but it's a great way to get a foothold
[23:50:56] eam: and as a result they're much, much more willing to take a risk
[23:51:19] smathy: ACTION wonders if "a decade and a half ago" was actually during the dot com bubble
[23:51:26] eam: smathy: the year after, in fact
[23:51:43] smathy: Ok, still crazy times :)
[23:51:48] eam: "yes but"
[23:52:47] eam: making it harder to fire people has a side effect of making it harder to hire people
[23:53:01] smathy: ...but really my point is that neither you nor I were interns, nor were either of our starting salaries $100k (and $60k is more like $80k than $90k in 2016 dollars according to the internet)
[23:53:05] eam: so you have this really interesting dynamic where companies will take fewer risks as the stakes rise
[23:53:37] eam: smathy: right - I'm quoting actual offers today for interns
[23:54:04] smathy: Right, I still don't understand how that's worth it to any company.
[23:54:08] eam: I'm saying the spread is 60-120k for interns because I have firsthand information as to what the market is currently offering
[23:54:24] eam: smathy: because interns are actually really, really productive
[23:55:03] eam: I've seen some interns produce at insanely high output levels -- there's huge variability
[23:55:31] Radar: The next intern you hire could be your next CTO in 5yrs time
[23:55:52] eam: and if I think back to early in my career I can remember tackling some projects which in retrospect were stretch goals for the team and I wasn't expected to deliver
[23:55:55] smathy: Ha, 5 years? Then you're gonna have a bad day.
[23:55:57] eam: but I didn't *know* that
[23:58:04] eam: hey, my boss was 17 when he sat in a hotel room with Woz and implemented the disk subroutines for apple
[23:58:18] eam: goes without saying, no degree at 17 right
[23:59:10] smathy: A single case doesn't make a pattern.
[23:59:49] smathy: I suppose if that's what you mean, that in the history of the valley, there has been at least one intern paid $100k then I have no issue with that.
[23:59:52] eam: I've worked with a hell of a lot of single cases in my career (and as a sr engineer the majority of my time is now spent training them)
[23:59:57] smathy: ...that's not the meaning I took.