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#ruby-offtopic - 11 July 2017

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[05:20:29] Guest12773: borked irc again
[05:21:23] havenwood: yeah, it's one of those things you don't really setup much, so it's not very practices
[05:22:05] havenwood: Guest12773: how do you like the new computer?
[05:22:24] Guest12773: better if I could get it going
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[05:24:16] lemur: well that's one down.
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[13:50:42] dminuoso: apeiros: What the living fuck is a binary double?!
[13:51:10] dminuoso: Is this just a plain-old IEEE 754 double-precision number?
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[14:14:18] leah2: the formal name is binary64
[14:21:17] dminuoso: leah2: My question is whether a "binary double" is a binary64 then.
[14:21:29] dminuoso: Also, why does the oracle enhanced adpater start id sequences at 10_000?
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[14:35:03] leah2: yes, it is
[14:35:24] leah2: (in contrast to a decimal float)
[14:37:14] eam: dminuoso: I'll settle for "most important" :)
[14:37:35] eam: I'm mostly trying to explain why the industry seemingly picks "worse" products
[14:54:50] dminuoso: eam: I still haven't ruled out general incompetency.
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[16:25:05] eam: similar sort of thing: have you ever seen the yahoo slides on why they picked php
[16:26:51] baweaver: eam: always assumed deal with the devil
[16:27:07] baweaver: looks like he finally called in his due though
[16:27:14] eam: lemmie see if I can dig 'em up - basically, language aesthetics take a backseat to being able to hire several thousand engineers
[16:27:26] eam: also, I'm on bart so uh, I may drop in and out
[16:28:04] eam: here we go, radwin 2002 http://www.radwin.org/michael/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm
[16:28:20] apeiros: dminuoso: I presume a binary double is a base2 double. ieee754 also defines decimal floats
[16:28:35] apeiros: oh, I see leah2 already said that :D
[16:28:42] eam: baweaver: also dude, if that's the devil's due I'll take that deal
[16:28:53] eam: yahoo surged 500% near the end; I'm kinda stupid for leaving
[16:29:26] eam: I still can't hire away the core ads engineers who're still working there
[16:30:02] eam: public perception is usually pretty wildly out of touch with reality
[16:33:06] baweaver: Heh, fair point.
[16:33:18] baweaver: I think a similar line is used to justify Java overall nowadays.
[16:38:16] eam: I detest java and it's one of the most attractive platforms to build on
[16:56:16] dminuoso: apeiros: I meant within the context of oracle btw :p
[16:56:40] apeiros: oh, well possible oracle actually supports decimal floats. no idea. docs didn't help?
[16:57:01] dminuoso: apeiros: The docs are as useless as ever.
[16:57:55] apeiros: huh? I found the docs to be useful in general. not stellar, but relatively solid.
[16:58:08] dminuoso: apeiros: Maybe Im just spoiled by the high quality docs that Postgres comes with.
[16:58:24] dminuoso: I mean granted, that graphical BNF notation is not bad
[17:00:14] dminuoso: eam: Something like PHP is adaptable if you are large enough if you provide your own monstrous stack of patches and tools to avoid any of the language problems -> essentially modifying the language.
[17:00:30] dminuoso: *adoptable.
[17:01:23] dminuoso: And in reality facebook has been slowly drifiting away from their PHP in the backend.
[17:02:35] dminuoso: I mean facebook created Hack to solve the issues. Im sure that Yahoo took some similar routes.
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[17:03:39] dminuoso: But I agree that broad availability of engineers is definitely an important factor for small and large businesses alike.
[17:04:05] dminuoso: For large businesses to scale, and for small businesses to make it easier to find partners experienced with your software stack.
[17:04:22] Papierkorb: But how many good engineers are there? PHP having a bad reputation for shoddy code quality doesn't come from nowhere
[17:05:06] dminuoso: Papierkorb: I think it's easier to find 1_000 skilled PHP developers than it is to find 1_000 skilled C++ developers.
[17:05:19] Papierkorb: Would be interesting if PHP has exceptionally many bad devs compared to other languages, or if it's just because everyone and their code "knows" PHP
[17:05:33] Papierkorb: *and their cat
[17:05:46] VeryBewitching: I think PHP is still in use because those developers don't know any better.
[17:05:47] dminuoso: We clearly need a /. poll to solve this.
[17:06:11] VeryBewitching: I was stuck with it for more than ten years and I'm glad it's in my rear-view.
[17:06:12] dminuoso: Or maybe an article. But Im afraid we dont get any car analogies or princess bridge references anymore.
[17:06:33] dminuoso: VeryBewitching: Honestly it's just a matter of tooling, conventions and culture.
[17:07:09] dminuoso: VeryBewitching: JavaScript has a freaking horrible environment, but when you add flow-type, heavy linting, functional programming paradigms and the right libraries it becomes a super solid language.
[17:07:22] VeryBewitching: dminuoso: The language does have it's issues, consistency of heritage and function conventions being the two that drive me bonkers the most.
[17:07:25] Papierkorb: tbh, the PHP irc channel is the most immature coding channel I know of. There are many layed back ones .. and then there's PHP
[17:07:30] dminuoso: But that still doesn't change that node.js is literally filled with junk
[17:08:01] VeryBewitching: That and I don't personally believe that 0 == false == null
[17:08:02] dminuoso: Papierkorb: Im fairly sure that there's some places for the skilled people to hang out... like a slack channel.. or maybe an irc channel on efnet :D
[17:08:14] dminuoso: VeryBewitching: Tooling can work around that.
[17:08:43] VeryBewitching: dminuoso: Sure, but I've been working with it since PHP 2 FI and the community doesn't seem to care that they're wading in garbage
[17:09:07] dminuoso: VeryBewitching: Let's take the JS world since I have more experience.
[17:09:22] dminuoso: VeryBewitching: If you look in the react world you start seeing some very interesting things and really well written libraries.
[17:09:30] dminuoso: All the javascript deficiencies? tackled.
[17:09:49] VeryBewitching: I agree that JS both client and server-side has thankfully come quite a long way.
[17:09:56] dminuoso: Granted, it would be better if the language had static typing from the get-go (typescript has that covered for you)
[17:10:10] dminuoso: VeryBewitching: And yet the majority of folks in #javascript ask about how to fuck with the dom with jQuery
[17:10:21] dminuoso: programming sites with manual event handlers
[17:10:44] VeryBewitching: There's still an old school mentality in there.
[17:11:00] dminuoso: Precisely my point.
[17:11:48] dminuoso: JS is inherently still crap. It requires a lot of work to make it suitable for scaled production.
[17:11:52] dminuoso: But the industry has invested into it.
[17:12:50] dminuoso: flowtyped? say thanks to facebook. typescript? say thanks to microsoft. react? say thanks to fb. angular? say thanks to google. usable eslint configurations? say thanks to airbnb
[17:13:32] dminuoso: Turning a garbage language into something usable by just adding tooling.
[17:14:16] VeryBewitching: Some of the PHP teams out there have provided a good deal of assistance in that matter, but the horde as a whole doesn't realize the mess they're living with. There are much better ways to skin a cat imo
[17:14:19] Papierkorb: At that point, you're using JS as virtual machine of sorts. It's not JS anymore - Which may be a good thing.
[17:14:43] Papierkorb: Though I've been happy for my small things with pure JS ES6 without-bullshit.
[17:14:46] VeryBewitching: Maybe in 5 - 6 years PHP will attract me again
[17:15:01] Papierkorb: VeryBewitching: Many coders are `9 to 5 devs`. They simply don't care.
[17:15:27] VeryBewitching: Papierkorb: I know some very zealous WordPress coders who happen to think they found the grail
[17:16:01] VeryBewitching: Building applications in a blog platform turned CMS makes my proverbial skin itch something terrible
[17:17:25] Papierkorb: ... okay, I admit it, I do get a chuckle out of it whenever some super popular WP plugin has a really stupid vulnerability reported. Thank goodness I have nothing to do with that crap.
[17:18:11] VeryBewitching: Joomla! is pretty infamous for that too.
[17:19:10] Papierkorb: Really, all of the PHP CMS's are
[17:19:40] Papierkorb: You'd think that after all those years, these codebases would be battle tested and hardened. But nope.
[17:19:53] dminuoso: Papierkorb: I think it depends a bit where they originate from.
[17:20:18] dminuoso: Papierkorb: From what I can tell the JS libraries that have been developed from healthy cultures (say within the confines of facebook or google) are extremely solid.
[17:20:44] dminuoso: I can't recall any even half-way usable JS UI framework library that was developed not from an internal need, but rather as a "fan project"
[17:22:29] dminuoso: Not sure about ember, but Im willing to bet that the core contributors work for yahoo or twitch
[17:23:50] Papierkorb: I don't like any of them. But I'm also not a webdev aficionado. my train's heading elsewhere.
[17:24:12] baweaver: Ember? Na. LinkedIn, Square, Sony mostly iirc.
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[17:26:44] dminuoso: baweaver: Even projects like the Linux kernel are only as rock solid because thousands of companies have software developers hired with the permission to submit patches..
[17:26:44] dminuoso: The bulk of contributions in Linux comes from the industry, not hobby developers.
[17:27:07] Papierkorb: And those who are, are usually recruited at some point ;)
[17:49:30] eam: I'll just toss this out here https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
[18:16:01] baweaver: going with the old classics eh eam?
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