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#ruby-offtopic - 07 December 2017

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[01:40:35] RickHull: apeiros: I said earlier: show me an example of using the result of a predicate method as an object, not a condition
[01:40:49] RickHull: e.g. in lib/ on Github
[01:41:08] RickHull: I think I found a good example. the grandaddy of predicate methods: defined?
[01:41:40] RickHull: e.g. defined?(THING) #=> "constant"
[01:41:50] RickHull: I'm sure someone uses the return value somewhere
[01:43:46] RickHull: I propose: predicate? #=> [Object, nil, true, false].sample predicate?? #=> [true, false].sample
[01:44:24] RickHull: >> nil.is_a?(Object) # RIP
[01:44:25] ruby[bot]: RickHull: # => true (https://eval.in/913822)
[01:44:45] RickHull: however falsity is determined ;)
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[05:50:05] apeiros: RickHull: funny enough, defined? isn't actually a method :D
[05:50:57] RickHull: it's a problem for mruby
[05:51:42] RickHull: i don't quite know what the problem is shaped like, but mruby doesn't have defined?
[05:53:06] RickHull: what's the story with defined? in MRI?
[05:53:37] RickHull: er, `defined?` heh
[06:00:53] apeiros: not quite sure what you mean with "the story". but defined? isn't a method. it becomes obvious when you realize that e.g. `defined?(super)` doesn't actually invoke super. impossible for a method. also a method couldn't determine an expression's type, all it'd ever see is the object it evaluates to
[06:01:03] apeiros: ACTION afk, gotta commute
[06:25:16] RickHull: I really want `const_get`
[07:02:00] dminuoso: RickHull: defined? is shoehorned into ruby
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[07:05:00] RickHull: yeah -- i don't like it and stopped needing it very recently
[07:05:25] RickHull: s/needing/using/
[07:06:18] RickHull: it was easy to reach for -- and based on its behavior, I could see how rubyists could be confused into relying on the specific value of a `predicate?` method
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[07:06:55] RickHull: if defined?(THINGY) == "constant"
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[07:11:35] dminuoso: If code depends on whether or not consts are defined its code smell.
[07:12:51] RickHull: it's in test/
[07:13:04] dminuoso: Then just access the constant.
[07:13:13] dminuoso: It will throw if its not defined.
[07:14:28] RickHull: true, but there is some inheritance voodoo
[07:15:27] dminuoso: Either that inheritance voodoo is relevant to your test, then you need to test it anyway, or its not then this is also a moot point.
[07:16:57] RickHull: without getting to deeply into it, the test is containing the lib behavior. it wants to know about violations before they occur
[07:17:19] RickHull: s/to/too/ :P
[07:20:33] dminuoso: RickHull: The problem is that defined?(FOO) is relatively meaningless.
[07:20:36] dminuoso: For example:
[07:21:40] dminuoso: >> module M; def self.const_missing(a) 42 end end; "%s // %s" % [defined?(M::A).inspect, M::A]
[07:21:42] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => "nil // 42" (https://eval.in/913997)
[07:22:14] dminuoso: It really doesn't tell you much, unless you have code that is explicitly somehow dependent on the output of M.constants, but then test for that directly.
[07:22:17] RickHull: i agree. i am talking about a situation in test/ that prefers Hash#fetch semantics to Hash#[]
[07:23:30] RickHull: I never wanted to use `defined?` in the first place :)
[07:23:41] RickHull: but I did and then looked into it and then stoppped
[07:24:23] dminuoso: RickHull: Any news on that const lookup bug by the way?
[07:24:52] RickHull: i haven't looked in a few days. it's "expected behavior"
[07:25:05] dminuoso: Expected behavior?
[07:25:17] RickHull: review the ticket
[07:25:23] RickHull: not that it says it outright
[07:25:26] RickHull: and then tell me
[07:25:34] RickHull: or ask matthewd
[07:26:11] RickHull: dminuoso: it's all about toplevel === Object
[07:26:32] RickHull: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/14148
[07:27:38] dminuoso: RickHull: While I agree that it probably is related to that fact, but it's absolutely not expected behavior.
[07:28:25] RickHull: I should hope so!
[07:30:26] dminuoso: RickHull: https://eval.in/914009
[07:30:36] dminuoso: there's no way you can look at that and tell me it's expected in the slightest conceivable way.
[07:30:54] dminuoso: Or more to the point: https://eval.in/914010
[07:31:10] RickHull: i was gunna say: argh
[07:31:47] dminuoso: The problem *is* somehow related to having to tap into top level.
[07:31:56] dminuoso: Maybe I should just
[07:31:57] dminuoso: comment on that
[07:32:10] RickHull: ACTION rubs fingertips
[07:34:56] dminuoso: Well.. of course..
[07:35:08] dminuoso: Actually no. Hah.
[07:35:18] dminuoso: See, that was such a horrible idea to talk about it that late.
[07:35:31] RickHull: did you get quoted?
[07:35:31] dminuoso: => [String, Comparable, Object, Kernel, BasicObject]
[07:35:43] dminuoso: So if const lookup just follows ancestors..
[07:35:51] dminuoso: And defining it on top level scope does it on Object..
[07:36:05] RickHull: you were *quite* convincing
[07:36:27] dminuoso: No, the problem is it still does the wrong thing, ruby 2.5 makes this more obvious.
[07:36:30] RickHull: we were gunna be famoose
[07:36:51] RickHull: ruby 2.5 escalates fer sher
[07:37:33] dminuoso: I mean in 2.4 it does not *look* to be a problem, except for that warning that simply shouldn't appear.
[07:37:50] RickHull: it's some nasty behavior
[07:38:29] RickHull: the problem is everyone thinks toplevel is clean
[07:38:38] RickHull: but it's gnarly dirty
[07:38:44] dminuoso: ::String::X
[07:38:53] dminuoso: Is that single bit that is weird. The warning simply shouldn't happen.
[07:39:03] dminuoso: Though I suppose it could//
[07:40:17] dminuoso: So. Since ::String::X is fully qualified, it essentially looks inside Object for Object::String::X right?
[07:40:30] RickHull: ruby[bot] ?
[07:40:31] dminuoso: If it cant find it, it will look into ancestors.
[07:40:51] dminuoso: When it scans upwards, it will find it defined on Object, which might not be what the user intended for.
[07:41:01] dminuoso: So I suppose the warning and behavior on pre-2.5 is to be expected.
[07:41:16] RickHull: toplevel constants breh
[07:41:26] dminuoso: post-2.5 it however stops there, and assumes that this can't be it - but instead of resuming to scan, it just errors out.
[07:42:12] RickHull: i don't think there is a design fix
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[07:44:00] RickHull: for all design fixes there exists at least one design fix that kicks fucken ass
[07:45:28] RickHull: pardon me, logan off ;)
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[10:15:59] srandon111: hello all guys...
[10:16:04] srandon111: is this a friendly channel ???
[10:16:40] surrounder: srandon111: so is #perl
[10:17:00] srandon111: surrounder: i mean is this a noob-friendly channel ?
[10:17:06] srandon111: surrounder: yeah
[10:25:49] apeiros: too silent as a channel it seems :D
[10:26:14] dminuoso: Do I need to be friendly, apeiros?
[10:32:18] ruby[bot]: We can't help you without your code, please post it to https://gist.github.com
[10:47:15] dminuoso: Burgestrand: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/58769fb0760f2af81c4f60960bd06b75
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[10:56:39] apeiros: dminuoso: in here I don't care. over in #ruby: yes. absolutely :)
[10:56:59] dminuoso: Oh Im always friendly in #ruby
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[12:07:51] adaedra: #ruby-friendly
[12:08:02] adaedra: With 200% more MINASWAN
[12:08:10] apeiros: /join #ruby-unfriendly
[12:08:45] adaedra: I'm in 😈
[12:08:54] apeiros: that's not a valid channel name
[12:09:21] adaedra: #ruby-unfriendly ? Sure is.
[12:09:46] apeiros: ah, I thought you are in a channel named 😈
[12:09:55] adaedra: Freenode should allow emoji channels tho
[12:09:59] apeiros: anyway, afaik ##ruby is the no-nonsense, professional and totally friendly ruby channel
[12:10:11] apeiros: it's a protocol problem
[12:10:22] apeiros: lets start IRCv4?
[12:10:44] workmad3: who wants v4? IRCv6 ftw!
[12:10:56] adaedra: Well I succeeded at having emoji channels in other servers already
[12:11:01] apeiros: I… what? why?
[12:11:02] dminuoso: 13:08 apeiros | /join #ruby-unfriendly
[12:11:07] dminuoso: 13:08 adaedra | With 200% more MINASWAN
[12:11:09] dminuoso: I dont buy that.
[12:11:22] apeiros: dminuoso prefers #ruby-evil
[12:11:27] apeiros: unfriendly isn't enough
[12:11:41] adaedra: apeiros: WHY NOT
[12:11:44] dminuoso: The motto there is: MIEASWAE
[12:11:52] adaedra: πŸ”₯ πŸ”₯ πŸ”₯
[12:12:00] apeiros: adaedra: my question was @ workmad3's IRCv6
[12:12:42] workmad3: apeiros: v6 all the things! IRC, IP...
[12:13:05] workmad3: let's not go crazy :P
[12:13:20] workmad3: well, we have ES6, so close enough :)
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[14:46:51] apeiros: ACTION wanted to do: greatest(coalesce(potentially_null_a, to_date('0000-01-01')), …)
[14:47:12] apeiros: I'll now do with 0001-01-01 :) It's just curious that it can handle negative years but not the year zero.
[14:47:30] burgestrand: That is indeed curious :d
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[17:27:19] baweaver: adaedra: getting in the holiday spirit for ruby-unfriendly <3
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[21:01:28] baweaver: dminuoso: havenwood is back in LA for now D:
[21:01:35] baweaver: now we can't screw with you as easily
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[21:46:38] apeiros: watching "mars" - so they walk at -80Β°C, enter the building and then remove their helmets bare handed. sure. because -80Β°C surfaces are easy to touch bare handed :D
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[21:51:05] dminuoso: apeiros: So science demands that you try this out.
[21:51:19] dminuoso: I can supply you with some liquid nitrogen.
[21:52:39] apeiros: my sanity paired with our insanity demands that I try this out by using you as the test subject.
[21:52:39] apeiros: thanks for volunteering
[21:54:30] apeiros: also they're all standing around their injured commander instead of getting much needed rest.
[21:54:44] apeiros: I mean the whole premise of this series is that it tries to be realistic.
[21:56:34] miah: now i want to watch this show and look for all the ways it fails
[21:57:46] miah: sadly its not freely streamable through amazon prime..
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[22:06:59] dminuoso: apeiros: If they want to make a realistic movie on mars, they'll have to wait for good ol' Elon.
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[22:11:39] apeiros: dminuoso: he appears quite often in that series
[22:11:48] apeiros: it's almost half an ad for spaceX
[22:12:06] dminuoso: Haha really
[22:12:25] dminuoso: Havent watched it
[22:12:31] apeiros: yupp, really
[22:15:20] miah: did you read or watch The Martian?
[22:16:24] dminuoso: If I told you I was Matt Damon, would you believe me?
[22:17:07] miah: because I'm Matt Damon
[22:17:20] baweaver: I am Spartacus
[22:18:16] apeiros: I watched the martian. liked it.
[22:18:42] miah: I am asparagus
[22:19:00] apeiros: you make pee smell funny? o0
[22:19:02] dminuoso: miah: My version of the Martian would have gone like this: The spacecraft misses the mars by a few hundred thousand kilometers because in the ruby code driving the rocket the coders mistakingly used , instead of _ to denote a thousand separator.
[22:19:11] dminuoso: The crew dies, end of story.
[22:20:06] dminuoso: And if you think that I was just ripping off Mariner 1, I'm not. They did this bug in FORTRAN not in Ruby!
[22:20:23] miah: i dont believe it, because nasa has good style guides
[22:20:24] baweaver: That's unfortranate
[22:20:25] miah: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/dts/pm/Papers/nasa-c-style.pdf
[22:20:42] dminuoso: C styles, not fortran styles it seems.
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[22:20:49] dminuoso: Man this is going to be a good read, isnt it miah?
[22:20:57] elomatreb: I thought that bug that caused that one Mars mission to crash was unit (metric vs. imperial) confusion?
[22:21:03] miah: yes, its a good read
[22:21:11] miah: elomatreb: ya it was
[22:21:32] miah: http://articles.latimes.com/1999/oct/01/news/mn-17288
[22:21:44] dminuoso: elomatreb: Yup. I was talking about Mariner 1 which was a Venus flyby.. something something..
[22:21:49] miah: blame lockheed martin though
[22:21:50] miah: A navigation team at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory used the metric system of millimeters and meters in its calculations, while Lockheed Martin Astronautics in Denver, which designed and built the spacecraft, provided crucial acceleration data in the English system of inches, feet and pounds.
[22:22:05] dminuoso: Making shit scale is hard.
[22:22:18] elomatreb: Ooh, that one
[22:22:26] dminuoso: On that note.. did anyone else watch Aaron Paterson's keynote on this years railsconf keynote?
[22:22:40] dminuoso: Brilliant as always.
[22:23:58] baweaver: Careful, his ears will start burning
[22:24:09] baweaver: (tenderlove is occasionally hanging out on #ruby)
[22:24:51] dminuoso: baweaver: Under his given name?
[22:24:56] miah: https://www.nasa.gov/offices/oce/functions/standards/isu.html
[22:25:01] dminuoso: Or in disguise?
[22:25:08] havenwood: dminuoso: And the lightning talk accompanying it was fun too.
[22:25:20] miah: supposed to use metric in all govt programs since mid 70's
[22:25:23] havenwood: dminuoso: As tenderlove.
[22:25:29] havenwood: No incognito.
[22:25:55] dminuoso: havenwood: Has tenderlove ever shown the capability of speaking more than 5 minutes without at least trolling someone?
[22:26:34] miah: but it is a tender, loving, trolling
[22:29:28] baweaver: dminuoso: has baweaver?
[22:33:20] baweaver: miah: sometimes I have a sneaking feeling tenderlove is a grown up baweaver
[22:33:20] baweaver: the puns, the wordplay, the trolling, the semi-chaotic PRs and shenanigans
[22:33:45] miah: i dont know either of you well enough to make the comparison
[22:34:17] miah: never met you iirc, have only met tenderlove once years ago.. haven't really worked with either of you either
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[23:26:36] dminuoso: baweaver: Are you related to tenderlove?
[23:27:05] dminuoso: We'll have to run a DNA test to be sure.
[23:27:11] baweaver: He's kinda like my spirit animal though
[23:27:25] baweaver: If ever the two of us should meet, the world will fall
[23:27:26] dminuoso: Aren't you supposed to not say what your spirit animal is?
[23:27:32] baweaver: ACTION shrugs
[23:27:43] dminuoso: If I learned anything from Voyager (and there was not much to learn from), its that sharing your animal guide makes it angry.
[23:28:11] dminuoso: That and how annoying talaxians are.
[23:28:27] dminuoso: Would have repurposed Neelix to be a photon torpedo casing after the first day.
[23:29:59] miah: and that there might be coffee in that nebula?
[23:30:11] miah: and paris and janeway make cute mudkips?
[23:30:15] miah: mudkips too
[23:30:45] miah: neelix was a great morale officer though
[23:31:06] dminuoso: 00:30 miah | and paris and janeway make cute mudkips?
[23:31:10] dminuoso: I still have nightmares about that episode.
[23:31:25] miah: everybody does
[23:31:29] miah: its a collective nightmare
[23:31:35] dminuoso: I mean voyager was bad, but that episode.. was special.
[23:32:13] miah: i wonder what happened to their mudkip babies
[23:32:31] dminuoso: Turned into food of course.
[23:33:04] dminuoso: 00:30 miah | neelix was a great morale officer though
[23:33:32] dminuoso: On the Discovery Neelix would have replaced the Tardigrade until he died.
[23:34:04] miah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz8wXCNyqbM
[23:34:56] dminuoso: miah: Im honestly trying to think of any decent episodes in Voyager.
[23:35:19] miah: there are a few
[23:35:24] dminuoso: Oh that short story about nucleogenic lifeforms was kind of decent
[23:35:27] dminuoso: and well executed
[23:35:32] miah: i did enjoy that series, but there were some really silly episodes
[23:35:38] dminuoso: though the way they resolved it was sad :(
[23:36:05] miah: i dont remember the ending.. its been too long
[23:36:38] dminuoso: miah: DS9 is still the best ST though.
[23:36:48] dminuoso: Which pales in comparison to B5. =P
[23:37:05] miah: i tried to rewatch B5 recently, but i couldnt get into it
[23:37:20] dminuoso: Must have watched it like 6 times over the past 7 years.
[23:37:27] miah: the effects are just too special
[23:37:45] miah: the story is amazing once it gets there, but season one was.. hard.
[23:37:53] dminuoso: You mean the space cgi?
[23:38:05] dminuoso: Yeah. Season was quite harsh
[23:38:08] miah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i3iHQ0X-1I&list=PL7Ac2nWFT4uxgTJRYsNSuJxpzN81pGGrL
[23:38:16] miah: more my style
[23:38:47] miah: this show is pretty bad too tbh. but i like weird future cyberpunky kinda stuff
[23:39:01] miah: and i love how the first episode is about a ipod
[23:39:02] dminuoso: miah: Have you watched Space: Above and Beyond?
[23:39:25] dminuoso: Oh man that was like.. amazing stuff.
[23:39:57] dminuoso: But absolutely awful cgi and effects.
[23:40:01] dminuoso: cyperpunky?
[23:40:31] miah: lots of weird hacking and stuff
[23:40:50] miah: weird technology, corporations ruling everything, etc
[23:41:03] miah: tekwar has a very gibson terrible future noir feeling
[23:41:39] dminuoso: miah: Kind of sounds like Dark Angel.
[23:41:43] dminuoso: Oh. Okay maybe not
[23:42:11] miah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TekWar
[23:42:13] dminuoso: Will check out tekwar, bizarrely never watched it.
[23:42:36] miah: "The 22nd century universe is centered on "tek"β€”an illegal, addictive, mind-altering digital drug in the form of a microchip."
[23:42:55] miah: created by William Shatner too
[23:43:30] dminuoso: Well.. experience shows that Star Trek actors make absolutely horrible dictors.
[23:43:43] dminuoso: So Im not sure whether I trust William Shatner to write decent books after Star Trek V.
[23:43:46] miah: it was ghostwritten by somebody who an actually write
[23:44:12] miah: tekwar is fun, its not _amazing_ but for 90's scifi cyberpunk tv.. its pretty solid
[23:44:38] miah: have you rewatched Max Headroom recently?
[23:45:06] dminuoso: miah: nope, never watched it in the first place.
[23:45:06] dminuoso: never been much into cyperpunk
[23:45:41] miah: ooh. you should watch it.
[23:46:00] dminuoso: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092402/
[23:46:29] miah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Headroom_(character)
[23:47:22] dminuoso: Mmm, Ill note it
[23:47:36] dminuoso: Not sure whether Ill try it, but TekWar is definitely on.
[23:48:18] dminuoso: miah: You should check out `Dark Angel` if you're into dystopian scifi :)
[23:48:23] dminuoso: Unless you've already covered that
[23:48:57] miah: ya i watched it, but not recently
[23:49:05] dminuoso: Ah. Well Space: Above and Beyond then :P
[23:49:19] miah: jessica alba was in it iirc
[23:50:51] miah: i enjoyed this one, though its a bit slow at times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivors_(1975_TV_series)#Series_3_(1977)
[23:50:55] miah: er, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivors_(1975_TV_series)
[23:51:17] miah: there was a reboot in like.. 2008? but they only did the first season and never renewed :(
[23:51:20] dminuoso: Ah, I tried that but couldn't get into it.
[23:51:47] miah: i <3 post-apocalyptic fiction so i've watched most films/tv in this genre
[23:52:13] dminuoso: On a completely unrelated note...
[23:52:14] dminuoso: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDZ2fMHTvwk
[23:52:25] dminuoso: This is what US marines do.
[23:53:18] miah: i remember this ad
[23:53:21] dminuoso: Climb Tomb Raider type of dungeons and fight dragons with swords.
[23:54:13] dminuoso: I guess people who buy into this, is exactly what they want.
[23:54:18] dminuoso: So the ad is perfect.
[23:55:17] dminuoso: There's one scifi series.. I have managed to not watch...
[23:55:24] dminuoso: ALmost feel bad about it.
[23:56:24] apeiros: ACTION couldn't watch TAS
[23:56:46] dminuoso: miah: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0187636/
[23:57:01] miah: ah, farscape has good moments, but the ending is a bit jumbled
[23:57:04] dminuoso: And I think this is an error I need to rectify.. its been ontop of my watch list for years
[23:57:16] dminuoso: apeiros: TAS?
[23:57:19] miah: ya you should watch it
[23:57:37] apeiros: StarTrek the animated series
[23:57:37] apeiros: oh, farscape was fun. at least the parts I watched.
[23:57:51] dminuoso: That reminds me..
[23:57:53] miah: some of the last episodes are out of order on like.. netflix / dvd iirc.. so you might need to look up a list to make sure they are in the right order
[23:58:07] dminuoso: Who here has ever watched the Star Wars Holiday Special?
[23:58:30] dminuoso: miah: That would be awesome, let me check netflix
[23:58:36] miah: "Several of the early episodes of Season One were aired out of the intended order."
[23:58:42] miah: iirc some of the last episodes too
[23:59:01] dminuoso: apeiros: You should. Its one of the most painful things you can watch. Its inconceivable how bad a star wars piece can be.
[23:59:27] dminuoso: The quality of star wars pieces has always been inversely proportional to George Lucas involvement.
[23:59:28] miah: i'll watch ST:TAS after I watch Star Wars Christmas Special
[23:59:49] miah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX0x-I06Fpc
[23:59:56] miah: watch that, and then bleach your eyes