« Back to channel list

#ruby-offtopic - 14 December 2017

« Back 1 day Forward 1 day »
[00:07:29] nofxx: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[00:09:08] nofxx1: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[00:51:22] Technodrome: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[00:59:23] nofxx: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[01:08:57] eckhardt: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[02:00:16] Technodrome: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[02:36:19] leah2: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[02:38:48] leah2: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[02:49:30] Technodrome: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[04:37:06] Technodrome: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[04:44:50] kapil___: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[05:02:41] epochwolf: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[05:18:52] lupine: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[05:23:44] RickHull: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[05:33:07] RickHull: is there any kind of windows support group on here?
[05:33:18] RickHull: like, technical experts who can solve my windows problems
[05:33:32] RickHull: or even people who can just relate and lament about the horrors of windows affliction
[05:35:25] RickHull: in related news, I found this AWESOME!!11 windows utility that's totally not malware that approximates `nice` by injecting sleeps into running programs http://mion.faireal.net/BES/
[05:35:36] dminuoso: That depends on what you are willing to pay.
[05:35:46] dminuoso: Do you have a bag of triple choc chip cookies and fresh milk?
[05:36:05] RickHull: fresh cookies made from scratch straight from the oven
[05:36:11] RickHull: but the milk is a little umm
[05:36:11] dminuoso: Im willing to treat you psychologically then.
[05:36:28] dminuoso: Oh well. The quality of my treatment is directly proportional to the quality of the milk.
[05:36:40] RickHull: oh, it's good you're asking an american
[05:36:45] RickHull: because we have lots of quantity
[05:36:50] RickHull: oh, you said quality?
[05:37:14] dminuoso: I so saw this coming, but it was funny still.
[05:37:23] RickHull: i will sojourn to new jersey and find a fine jersey holstein cow
[05:37:42] dminuoso: So you're gonna send me a cow, "freshes milk yet" ?
[05:37:59] RickHull: there's nothing fresher than hot beef in wrapping paper
[05:38:18] RickHull: don't ask me what that means, i'm not sure myself
[05:38:23] RickHull: but it's fun to think about
[05:38:32] dminuoso: So in the company restaurant they had "Real American Burger" yesterday. With fries.
[05:38:40] dminuoso: Was the shittiest burger I ever had.
[05:38:43] RickHull: i've had hamburgers in europe
[05:38:43] dminuoso: Must be real.
[05:38:55] RickHull: granted, this was 15+ years ago
[05:39:02] RickHull: but it was like "ham" "burgers"
[05:39:05] dminuoso: RickHull: http://www.eatwithheart.de/files/assets/images/gallery-6.jpg
[05:39:18] dminuoso: This is from one of the finest burger shops I've ever been to.
[05:39:29] RickHull: what on earth is a fine burger shop in europe?
[05:39:34] dminuoso: Self made buns and everything.
[05:39:40] RickHull: ooh that looks nice
[05:39:51] RickHull: i like that little chain, entrecote
[05:40:04] RickHull: the steaks and frites place
[05:40:06] dminuoso: Nothing fast food about that.
[05:40:19] dminuoso: Takes a fair 15 minutes until your burger is done. ;-)
[05:40:35] dminuoso: Even the fries are self made
[05:40:40] RickHull: dminuoso: where are you from, Italy?
[05:41:16] RickHull: i like Italian Switzerland
[05:41:28] RickHull: I don't know much more of CH or DE
[05:41:36] RickHull: I almost did a semester at Darmstadt
[05:41:45] RickHull: so I went through there while I was touring
[05:42:04] RickHull: but not even a night there
[05:42:26] dminuoso: Switzerland is a weird place
[05:42:31] dminuoso: apeiros knows,
[05:43:02] RickHull: I love the mountains, valleys, and lakes there
[05:43:25] RickHull: from the train window, and where I got off the train in Interlaken, Lugano, Lucerne
[05:43:29] RickHull: I'm sure Geneva too
[05:43:49] RickHull: I've got at least 10 solid days in Lugano
[05:44:01] dminuoso: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0b/02/7e/00/photo0jpg.jpg
[05:44:04] dminuoso: Now Im hungry. :(
[05:44:09] dminuoso: And its not even 7 am yet.
[05:44:17] RickHull: oh, Grindelwald, Gimmelwald
[05:44:35] RickHull: but -- the hamburgers everywhere were no bueno
[05:44:40] RickHull: this was circa 1999 though
[05:44:56] RickHull: Interlaken in particular catered to anglo tourists
[05:45:02] RickHull: but their burgers still sucked
[05:45:02] dminuoso: In 1999 was a weird year.
[05:45:10] dminuoso: It was the year of the Nokia 7110.
[05:45:13] RickHull: in the middle of the euro transition
[05:45:28] RickHull: i paid always in local currency, never euro
[05:45:31] RickHull: rarely dollar
[05:45:31] dminuoso: People were too busy buying Nokia 8110 and 7110 after Matrix.
[05:45:40] dminuoso: Of course they didnt know how burgers were made.
[05:46:23] dminuoso: Hah. After 3 minutes of pressuring, I finally convinced my coworker to try out Haskell.
[05:46:42] dminuoso: Showing him parser combinators did the trick.
[05:47:18] RickHull: I'm quite interested now
[05:47:27] RickHull: I ran across a nice site from HN
[05:47:29] RickHull: trying to find it now
[05:47:37] RickHull: it was on HN like 7-10 days ago
[05:47:48] RickHull: news.ycombinator.com
[05:48:47] RickHull: the last time I looked at Haskell, it seemed alien
[05:48:58] RickHull: but on this site, still looking, it looked totally reasonable
[05:49:06] baweaver: ACTION wanders in
[05:49:12] baweaver: ACTION sees Haskell
[05:49:13] RickHull: now, the last time I looked at Haskell was before I tried Elixir and didn't grok at all
[05:49:15] baweaver: ACTION wanders out
[05:50:20] RickHull: there's this one (not it) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15882776
[05:50:22] dminuoso: What should I do?
[05:50:29] RickHull: (Currying is not idiomatic in javascript)
[05:50:42] dminuoso: "Currying is a popular technique in functional programming. It helps with partial application."
[05:51:11] dminuoso: I challenge the author to tell me "what partial application is"
[05:52:03] RickHull: baweaver: do you have a 'haskell' batsignal?
[05:53:25] RickHull: found it! https://soupi.github.io/rfc/reading_simple_haskell/
[05:54:55] dminuoso: Neat little rush through some of the core ideas :)
[05:55:28] dminuoso: I just hate this completely false and bullshit statement "Do notation is special syntax for writing IO actions in a way that looks imperative"
[05:55:55] dminuoso: But that's something that is frequently critized in #haskell
[05:56:38] RickHull: so what's the real version?
[05:57:15] dminuoso: It implies that you need do-notation for IO.
[05:57:22] dminuoso: Or that do notation is for IO.
[05:57:34] RickHull: well, how about side effects?
[05:57:39] RickHull: or imperative style
[05:57:46] RickHull: isn't that reasonably accurate?
[05:57:56] dminuoso: Let me rewrite into equivalent
[05:58:47] RickHull: i have no clue on 'do' notation at this point, literally zero besides skimming the slides a week ago and maybe recently
[05:58:57] dminuoso: It's just syntax sugar.
[05:58:59] dminuoso: RickHull: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/f188a8758df76099667f69b560ccb008
[05:59:02] RickHull: but what would you say 'do' notation is for?
[05:59:09] dminuoso: The above is desugared into the other.
[05:59:19] dminuoso: It's just a convenience syntax, nothing more.
[05:59:23] dminuoso: *syntax sugar
[05:59:35] RickHull: hmm, good example
[05:59:38] RickHull: still looking
[05:59:53] RickHull: i don't like the trailing quote on main
[06:00:00] dminuoso: RickHull: Do you know JS?
[06:00:02] RickHull: but I assume I can over it
[06:00:13] RickHull: i'm a hater :/
[06:00:13] dminuoso: RickHull: It's just "prime" as in mathematics :P
[06:00:51] RickHull: so how would you say it to me in english? main prime gets XYZ>?
[06:01:27] RickHull: well, I think '=' in Haskell isn't quite 'gets' (not the ruby gets, but assignment, like x gets the value of z)
[06:02:05] RickHull: in ruby, when I see x = y, in my head there is
[06:02:09] dminuoso: main' is just a name :P
[06:02:11] dminuoso: ' is allowed in names
[06:02:22] RickHull: it's a peer to e.g. n?
[06:02:32] dminuoso: think of it like...
[06:02:41] dminuoso: f'(x) = ....
[06:03:02] RickHull: I say "f prime of x equals/is dotdotdot"
[06:03:15] dminuoso: so main' is just a name :P
[06:03:22] dminuoso: could have been "quux" or "alternateMain" too
[06:03:22] RickHull: main-prime, ok
[06:03:47] dminuoso: at any rate
[06:03:51] dminuoso: Haskell has no side effects.
[06:03:55] dminuoso: Even things like `putStrLn` are pure.
[06:04:01] dminuoso: they dont have any effect.
[06:04:14] RickHull: so what is your taste between former and latter?
[06:04:33] RickHull: I like the stream-ishness of the latter
[06:04:39] RickHull: but the former seems nice too
[06:04:50] dminuoso: The latter is cleaner to start with, because its clearer.
[06:05:01] dminuoso: >>= is the monadic bind operator
[06:05:08] dminuoso: a >>= (\x -> ...)
[06:05:12] RickHull: there are less operators in the former
[06:05:21] RickHull: the latter has a backslash-looking-escape thing
[06:05:28] dminuoso: you know that
[06:05:31] dminuoso: in ruby you would write
[06:05:38] dminuoso: -> (result) { ... }
[06:05:49] dminuoso: I left away the parens of the lambda expression because associativity makes it optional in that case.
[06:06:05] dminuoso: \ is picked because it looks an awful lot like λ :P
[06:06:14] dminuoso: \x -> x * 2
[06:06:18] dminuoso: -> (x) { x * 2 }
[06:06:32] dminuoso: So as you can see, it's basically just function composition.
[06:06:53] dminuoso: done in such a way, that dependencies force a sequential evaluation
[06:06:59] dminuoso: and thats how you gain sequentiality in haskell
[06:07:15] dminuoso: Because Haskell has no evaluation order
[06:07:20] RickHull: it reminds me of counting in lambda calculus
[06:07:29] RickHull: like quite circuitous but ok, fair enough
[06:07:50] dminuoso: oh thats good
[06:08:56] RickHull: I still have trouble evaluating your last statement before the wink in my head... <sigh>
[06:09:08] RickHull: lambda x composed with x ?
[06:09:23] dminuoso: no that is the lambda calculus way of expressing an abstraction
[06:09:32] dminuoso: ruby has -> (x) { x }
[06:09:38] dminuoso: LB has λx.x
[06:09:41] RickHull: which is identity, right?
[06:09:54] dminuoso: So you can see that \ kind of looks like a lambda missing a leg :P
[06:10:04] dminuoso: which is why \ was picked, since it was the ascii character that looked closest to lambda
[06:10:17] RickHull: totally understood, there
[06:10:28] RickHull: but what should I understand when I see lambda x dot x
[06:10:33] RickHull: is that identity?
[06:11:35] dminuoso: thats how you express it in lambda calculus
[06:11:48] RickHull: does that imply how counting works?
[06:11:48] dminuoso: where lambda calculus has the dot ., haskell uses ->
[06:12:05] RickHull: sorry, I'm just grasping at some formalisms
[06:12:44] RickHull: i'm a little shaky on function composition, and not sure if dot means composition here
[06:13:55] RickHull: so I see lambda x dot x, and one version is def f(x); x; end
[06:15:17] RickHull: in which case I would say `f` is the identity function
[06:16:54] RickHull: or like you said `identity = -> (x) { x }`
[06:17:17] Exhiled: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[06:24:31] eckhardt: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[06:48:28] Exhiled: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[06:57:59] dminuoso: RickHull: The part that is correct, is that makes it appear imperative (emphasis on appear). :)
[06:58:18] dminuoso: But it's not limited to IO, and neither is it needed.
[06:58:38] dminuoso: It frequently leads to confusion amongst beginners that first get the advertisement that Haskell is pure and has no side effects or imperative behavior, and then they see "do-notation"
[07:34:43] apeiros: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[08:14:37] Mon_Ouie: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[08:54:25] burgestrand: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[09:03:58] mikecmpbll: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[10:10:02] kapil___: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[10:22:41] apeiros: soooo, with regards to the everlasting question "tabs, spaces or mixed for indent?", I found a new answer in the code of one of our subcontractors:
[10:22:43] apeiros: no indent at all
[10:22:52] apeiros: it's amazing. solves the question once and for all.
[10:27:46] Papierkorb: Why do people write code like that? They can't tell me for anything past 10 lines that they're capable of quickly reading those wall of texts
[10:32:19] dminuoso: Haha hilarious :D
[10:36:01] tobiasvl: hmm. what about writing every scope on a single line?
[10:37:42] dminuoso: tobiasvl: But what if the boss pays with LoC?
[10:38:01] dminuoso: I rather recommend one word per line.
[10:55:56] apeiros: Papierkorb: I have no idea. it's terrible to read. I don't understand it either.
[11:07:47] workmad3_: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[11:08:42] nofxx: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[11:33:12] workmad3: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[11:43:04] burgestrand: One of my first projects was tidying up HTML output from my PHP scripts because it was inconsistent… I don't know how people retain their sanity while not indenting rigorously
[11:44:35] apeiros: ACTION suddenly has flashbacks of htmltidy
[11:44:44] apeiros: or was it tidyhtml?
[11:44:53] apeiros: later it was libtidy iirc
[11:45:08] apeiros: gawd, php…
[11:45:12] apeiros: ACTION shudders
[11:47:56] elomatreb: Why tidy HTML though?
[11:49:19] burgestrand: Because it wasn't tidy
[11:49:47] burgestrand: This was like 14 years ago, my priorities weren't really set straight :)
[12:10:49] apeiros: elomatreb: because shit browsers rendered everything and everything shitty
[12:11:08] apeiros: htmltidy showed you were your html was broken (not just tidying it)
[12:11:19] elomatreb: They still do, they just agreed on one shitty version for everyone :)
[12:11:39] apeiros: only in html5, and it's left to be proven that they actually all do the same shitty sanitation :)
[12:12:14] apeiros: anyway, back then no haml or slim which semi-ensured proper html output. so what I did was a post-render stage which ran the whole output through tidy
[12:12:49] elomatreb: That can't have been very fast
[12:13:16] apeiros: define very fast. it didn't take more than a couple of ms
[12:13:35] apeiros: we didn't build the html monsters of today back then
[12:14:44] apeiros: I'd do it again if I wouldn't use slim. though I'd probably disable it in prod env.
[12:15:52] elomatreb: I know a similar thing is semi-popular in PHPland, basically parsing+re-rendering the generated HTML again to make sure you don't have any XSS anywhere
[12:17:26] apeiros: elomatreb: we have an appliance here which does that
[12:17:58] elomatreb: Papierkorb: I.e. with a tag/attribute whitelist
[12:17:58] apeiros: basically a reverse-proxy which processes all html, css and js
[12:18:32] Papierkorb: elomatreb: Why not make it follow those rules when initially rendering the document?
[12:18:47] apeiros: and that is indeed slow :D (we disabled it for our in-house built apps, as we're reasonably certain that we don't create the kind of holes the appliance protects against)
[12:19:03] elomatreb: It's PHPland, I guess the "rendering" part is just "string interpolation"?
[12:19:14] apeiros: ^ usually, yes
[12:19:24] apeiros: at least the decade ago when I still used it :D
[12:19:49] elomatreb: Wordpress code still looks like it did 10 years ago
[12:20:11] apeiros: color me totally surprised :D
[12:22:19] apeiros: re "code from the past" - I'm currently wading through plsql written between 2003 and 2005
[12:22:25] apeiros: totally fun
[12:22:38] apeiros: (it's also the indentation-less code)
[12:28:19] apeiros: also have I mentioned that I love cryptically abbreviated column names? like deltstp (for "delete_timestamp", also hungarian notiation for columns? wtf? you can just look the type up in the dll…)
[12:32:01] elomatreb: 8.3 rules for column names? :D
[12:33:04] apeiros: tbh, I've seen worse
[12:33:14] apeiros: tables which indeed obeyed "8 chars per col name"
[12:33:22] apeiros: it's unintelligible
[12:33:57] apeiros: and the vendor couldn't even explain all cols themselves :-S
[12:34:19] apeiros: you can imagine what that did to my confidence in their product ^^
[12:54:49] aScottishBoat: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[12:58:25] dminuoso: elomatreb: The main penalty we have to live with is this slow thing called Ruby.
[12:58:32] dminuoso: If I look at the render times of my elixir apps..
[12:58:39] dminuoso: It makes me cry.
[12:58:55] elomatreb: IME speed is less of a problem than memory use with Ruby
[12:59:12] dminuoso: Memory you can trivially tackle by simply tossing more at your server.
[12:59:23] elomatreb: "trivially"
[12:59:50] elomatreb: I should probably look into Elixir as well, it sounds pretty nice
[13:00:30] dminuoso: elomatreb: Personally I think its only worth it if you intend to use OTP.
[13:01:14] elomatreb: Worth it compared to another functional language or worth it compared to Ruby?
[13:03:36] apeiros: OTP? one time passwords?
[13:03:51] apeiros: one trick ponies?
[13:05:55] dminuoso: apeiros: https://github.com/erlang/otp
[13:06:05] dminuoso: elomatreb: worth compared to ruby
[13:06:42] dminuoso: elomatreb: Or even compared to other functional languages too.
[13:09:45] dminuoso: Something like OCaml seems like the more universal pick if you wanted an impure FP language
[13:20:25] nofxx: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[13:26:44] burgestrand: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[13:42:05] mikkelsen: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[13:44:19] nofxx: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[14:03:00] aScottishBoat: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[14:26:37] adaedra: >> RUBY_VERSION
[14:26:38] ruby[bot]: adaedra: # => "2.3.0" (https://eval.in/919063)
[14:35:38] nofxx1: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[14:41:47] nofxx: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[14:55:55] nofxx1: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[14:57:00] eckhardt: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[15:04:11] dminuoso: \o/ adaedra
[15:28:28] apeiros: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[16:15:54] nofxx1: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[16:22:25] Technodrome: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[16:28:03] dminuoso: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[16:36:35] aScottishBoat: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[16:36:43] eckhardt: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[16:43:57] aScottishBoat: what's up ruby peeps
[16:49:27] adaedra: you just got mooned
[16:50:43] adaedra: Don't `ew` like that, you're the one doing it
[16:51:25] aScottishBoat: am I evil if I use perl in production?
[16:51:30] aScottishBoat: (NOTE: I haven't... yet)
[16:51:47] aScottishBoat: a guy interviewing me for a job said "PHP is evil, but Perl is maliciously evil."
[16:51:56] aScottishBoat: great news I think I may make a Dancer2 app
[16:52:38] adaedra: as long as it's not php
[16:53:14] aScottishBoat: ooo but I like PHP. I made a CLI tool, and I'm going to add ncurses to it haha
[16:55:39] apeiros: ok, so for those who know who pyra & mythra are - at least the devs are somewhat aware of what they did. some after-battle chatter: pyra: "could you stop looking at me?" - rex: "I didn't. I mean you keep entering my field of vision, is all…"
[16:56:40] adaedra: aScottishBoat booo
[16:58:23] adaedra: PHP: Please Hate with Passion
[17:01:35] apeiros: Please Hate Passionately
[17:06:26] nofxx1: aScottishBoat, I prefer $ in my bank account, thank you
[17:06:53] aScottishBoat: wow such hate for PHP but perl gets a slide :(
[17:07:02] aScottishBoat: Larry Wall is a very nice guy, though
[17:07:55] adaedra: Everyone knows better than using perl, that's why
[17:07:56] aScottishBoat: >> $i=1; ($i == 1) ? echo "True!" : echo "False :(";
[17:08:18] aScottishBoat: haha well I may make a Dancer2 app so I'm prepared
[17:08:23] aScottishBoat: it'll all be obfuscated perl too
[17:13:47] nofxx1: hehe, gonna change to "I prefer $ before numbers, thank you"
[17:14:17] aScottishBoat: nofxx_: like the band?
[17:14:29] aScottishBoat: >> puts "NoFX rOxORz"
[17:14:36] aScottishBoat: I don't know how to do the thing :(
[17:14:37] adaedra: I'll make a PHP fork where you use € for variables instead of $
[17:14:53] aScottishBoat: adaedra, you European bro
[17:15:24] adaedra: 'urope, FUCK YEAH
[17:16:22] nofxx1: adaedra, go for Ƀ, more appeal today
[17:16:26] aScottishBoat: you're not British are you
[17:16:42] adaedra: nofxx_: sorry, real money only
[17:17:00] Papierkorb: but BTC is down 3%, why would you invest into that
[17:17:05] adaedra: So Ƀ or £ are right out
[17:17:39] nofxx1: adaedra, exactly...crypto == real. $ == gov ink on gov paper
[17:18:18] nofxx1: so I guy decides.. hey, let's print more
[17:18:25] adaedra: And let me guess, taxation is theft right?
[17:19:39] nofxx1: well it is, in strict sense... if someone will punish you for not paying
[17:20:27] adaedra: That's a nice reality you have here
[17:20:28] aScottishBoat: adaedra, you're not Spanish are you
[17:20:31] aScottishBoat: cheeky Spaniards
[17:20:54] aScottishBoat: doubtful no one can type upside down ! that fast without a Spanish keyboard layout
[17:21:57] nofxx1: ¡love mac keyboard layout!
[17:22:01] adaedra: It's option + ! on a mac qwerty
[17:22:30] aScottishBoat: you're from Ireland aren't you
[17:22:30] adaedra: ¡, é, ä, ß, ø or š are quite easy to type
[17:22:32] aScottishBoat: I figured it out
[17:22:43] nofxx1: binding keys make me want buy an RPG to explode the PC (non-latin speakers won't understand)
[17:23:29] nofxx1: adaedra, is taxation theft?
[17:23:59] adaedra: because I get something back on this money
[17:24:07] eckhardt: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[17:24:52] nofxx1: adaedra, that someone else decides for you
[17:25:06] adaedra: that's not theft
[17:25:28] adaedra: When there is theft, you get nothing back, it's just gone
[17:26:19] nofxx1: you may, you may not... isn't YOUR decision
[17:26:30] nofxx1: and you're confusing... theft is just because it's mandatory
[17:26:42] nofxx1: that doesnt mean it shouldn't exsists.. but you should choose where the money goes
[17:27:36] Exhiled: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[17:29:43] nofxx1: or better, if you see return, and only in what you see return you should pay
[17:30:39] nofxx1: voluntarily
[17:32:57] aScottishBoat: there was a famous American, can't remember his name
[17:33:21] aScottishBoat: in the 1800s he didn't approve of a war the US was in and he didn't pay his taxes knowing they were going to the military
[17:34:03] aScottishBoat: his friends eventually paid the taxes and he was free
[17:47:28] aScottishBoat: nofxx_, are you ancap?
[17:51:13] mikecmpbll: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[19:09:48] kapil___: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[19:29:14] adaedra: At least they're for complete privatisation of everything
[19:29:25] adaedra: That's a bold strategy, let's see how it plays out
[19:31:04] nofxx1: adaedra, can empirically tell you there's nothing good in state owned companies
[19:31:11] nofxx1: being a brazilian...
[19:31:34] Papierkorb: corruption can happen in any company
[19:31:52] nofxx1: Papierkorb, not that, inefficiency is way worst
[19:32:05] nofxx1: ppl get to high jobs because of politics, not merit
[19:32:16] adaedra: So the problem is not taxation itself, but the way this money is used
[19:33:18] baweaver: ACTION wanders in
[19:33:46] Papierkorb: What is üp Mr baweaver
[19:34:05] adaedra: You got out of #python-but-better?
[19:34:33] baweaver: Making fun Ruby things, trying to steal the rest of #ruby to Square, the usual
[19:34:38] baweaver: Still need to redirect that properly
[19:55:11] nofxx1: adaedra, yup... way better when you decide who you want to give yr hard earned money to
[19:58:09] mikecmpbll: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[20:02:40] adaedra: aaaaaaand everyone keeps it for themselves and nothing works anymore.
[20:09:18] mikecmpb_: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[20:23:50] cjohnson: "taxes aren't your decision" is not true
[20:24:02] cjohnson: 1: public opinion demands money be spent on things, and the money must come from somewhere
[20:24:11] cjohnson: and 2: public elects the people to make the things happen to get their needs and wants met
[20:24:26] pwnd_nsfw: It should be the local government handling taxes though
[20:24:29] pwnd_nsfw: or most of it
[20:24:35] pwnd_nsfw: federal government is trash
[20:24:55] cjohnson: Lots of people want lots of things at a national level, or things that are much less feasible at a local level
[20:25:07] cjohnson: there would be a huge amount of waste and duplication of efforts if every singel thing were local only
[20:25:25] cjohnson: the nightmare involved in trying to manage interstate anything is already insane
[20:25:49] cjohnson: we manage interstate healthcare licensing stuff and have fulltime staff just for the sole purpose of navigating all the rule differences
[20:25:58] cjohnson: and entire dev teams around managing every little edge case
[20:26:04] eam: cjohnson: not really, in that many US states are far larger than most countries
[20:26:20] eam: a system of smaller individual countries empirically works and works well
[20:26:32] cjohnson: That's an opinion
[20:26:41] cjohnson: there are of course many downsides to these sorts of unions
[20:26:43] eam: regarding "taxes aren't your decision" it is true, and you've agreed that it's true -- it's a collective decision not individual
[20:27:07] adaedra: Look at Europe, we have small countries and still started to have a larger entity to manage some things
[20:27:10] cjohnson: that doesn't mean it's not a decision
[20:27:18] eam: regarding whether it's theft, this is opinion. Clearly, at some point we declare the state taking individual property is theft (see: various socialist revolutions)
[20:27:18] cjohnson: that you make and contribute to
[20:27:30] eam: cjohnson: it means it's not *your* decision
[20:27:40] eam: concretely, as a matter of fact, is it not a personal decision
[20:27:47] cjohnson: Well of course not
[20:27:49] eam: no, it's a decision made by the state
[20:27:51] cjohnson: it's a group decision made by a group
[20:27:54] cjohnson: and the state is...
[20:28:01] eam: not the individual
[20:28:10] eam: so the statement that it's not "your" decision is true
[20:28:18] eam: it's "our"
[20:28:22] cjohnson: In only the most pedantic and useless way
[20:28:37] adaedra: well I guess you can decide to not pay taxes, but that also means you can't profit from anything provided by the state, and I don't see how it's really doable (and how you can want that)
[20:28:40] eam: if you think the subject of a statement is useless then you're impossibly off base
[20:28:53] baweaver: ACTION sees taxes mentioned
[20:29:00] baweaver: ACTION sees lots of messages from eam
[20:29:04] baweaver: ACTION grabs popcorn
[20:29:47] eam: we agree that there's a point at which takings by the state become what we colloquially consider theft, yes?
[20:30:11] adaedra: government don't keep it for itself
[20:30:36] eam: so you disagree with people who consider Germany to have stolen property from its jewish population in the first half of the century?
[20:30:46] adaedra: WOAH WOAH WOAH
[20:30:47] eam: that's not theft?
[20:30:53] adaedra: WOAH WOAH WOAH
[20:30:59] cjohnson: "literally hitler"
[20:31:05] cjohnson: ACTION golf claps
[20:31:10] eam: gotta stop this somehow
[20:31:23] adaedra: this is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen
[20:31:29] baweaver: Godwin's law up to bat
[20:31:31] cjohnson: world speed record for
[20:31:36] cjohnson: ah thanks I was just about to google
[20:31:37] adaedra: I get it, you're not interested in a discussion
[20:31:54] eam: nah I am, I think you're not interested in looking at the entire scope of government behavior though
[20:32:02] eam: you can't just cherry-pick within a narrow scope
[20:32:12] eam: we agree that was theft, right?
[20:32:33] adaedra: Yes it was, because there was nothing given back
[20:32:41] adaedra: It was not taxation though
[20:32:59] eam: it was takings by the state, I'm not sure how you wouldn't consider that a tax
[20:33:19] eam: let's use the rise of communism in russia
[20:33:21] eam: was that takings?
[20:33:37] eam: how about the takings of property on the basis of race in zimbabwe?
[20:33:55] eam: the fact is, all three of these examples involves state takings and use by the state
[20:34:05] eam: and in some form or another, funding community efforts
[20:34:27] adaedra: You're taking isolated examples to try to make your point
[20:34:33] cjohnson: What's the word for that
[20:34:36] cjohnson: apple picking?
[20:34:36] eam: that's correct, and I'm doing that because this is how points are made
[20:34:38] cjohnson: grape picking?
[20:34:46] adaedra: _badly_ made
[20:34:54] eam: no, fantastically and unimpeachably made
[20:34:59] eam: see, we started with your statement
[20:35:03] eam: and I'm using counter-examples
[20:35:21] eam: are we going to stop and examine how debate works? because I'm doing it right
[20:35:32] eam: a single counter example is all it takes to disprove a broad assertion
[20:35:40] cjohnson: Fig-picking
[20:35:44] cjohnson: no wait, damnit
[20:35:58] cjohnson: somebody said it not too long ago
[20:36:03] eam: cherry-picking is when you argue a broad conclusion based on selective examples, but that's not what's going on here
[20:36:06] eam: you may be confused :D
[20:36:08] adaedra: Nah, I've seen you're just trying to do shit, I'm going to take care of my pizza
[20:36:47] eam: anyway, glad we either agree *or* concede to the point that government takings can become theft, that there's a socially defined relative gradient
[20:36:54] adaedra: cjohnson cherry, apparently
[20:37:12] adaedra: eam: I'd call those governments rogue ones tho
[20:37:19] eam: sure, so would I
[20:37:31] eam: that generally goes hand in hand with engaging in theft
[20:38:34] adaedra: That's totally not the kind of governments I'd speak of above, even if I would concede that no government is perfect. But let's not go to complete evil examples (Hi Adolf) just for the sake of it.
[20:38:56] eam: the best counter-example is an unambiguous one
[20:39:18] eam: when we talk about *our* governments, we equivocate over whether or not they're rogue when we accuse them of theft
[20:39:25] baweaver: eam: the non-complete-evil examples would be ones around imminent domain
[20:39:39] baweaver: still evil, but not Hitler / Stalin evil
[20:39:44] eam: baweaver: right, or civil asset forfeiture
[20:40:04] eam: or what California did in I thinkn 2015 where it passed retroactive taxes
[20:40:17] eam: because theft isn't defined by taking, it's defined by improper taking
[20:40:35] eam: and so your judgement of whether the government is acting in a morally acceptable fashion is central
[20:41:01] eam: and super relative, when we start looking at more moderate examples
[20:41:21] baweaver: well what do you do when solving a recursive problem?
[20:41:34] baweaver: You find an unambiguous base case you can say for a fact is correct
[20:41:58] eam: hitler, stalin, mugabe :)
[20:42:11] eam: and see, we all agree on those!
[20:42:13] baweaver: and you work from there to find how to solve others of lesser-known-correctness
[20:43:34] adaedra: so let me get this straight: you used bad examples out of the scope to prove a point we were not discussing.
[20:43:52] eam: ah but they are good examples *and* they worked
[20:44:10] eam: and it was directly relevant to your point of whether or not government takings *can* be theft
[20:44:15] eam: and you agreed with me
[20:44:20] eam: so I'm going to say it was all around excellent
[20:44:28] adaedra: The point was not that
[20:44:31] eam: it sure was
[20:44:58] eam: and then, from there, as baweaver explains, we work backward - at what point do we consider takings to *not* be theft?
[20:45:17] eam: now that we have concretely established that a subjective designation exists
[20:45:53] eam: if California doubled its income tax this year would that be theft?
[20:46:08] eam: what if they increase it to 100%?
[20:46:21] eam: what if they singled out particular professions only?
[20:46:42] eam: everyone will, at some point, decide that taxation crosses a line into unfairness and theft
[20:47:00] eam: *where* that line is crossed is very different for everyone -- but we can all agree at the extremes
[20:47:21] cjohnson: It's like art
[20:47:27] cjohnson: bob and weave
[20:47:59] eam: if California decided to take half of everyone's bank account I can guarantee you the majority of people would consider it to be theft
[20:54:00] eam: I'm paying like a 56% tax rate this year, which I think is a little bit too high for what I get back in terms of social services
[20:58:11] VeryBewitching: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[21:01:41] eam: top marginal rate, but yes
[21:02:03] apeiros: I pay maybe 10% of my brutto income
[21:02:19] eam: the actual rate will be a bit under 50% I think
[21:02:32] eam: but definitely >40%
[21:03:35] eam: I've compared to folks with similar jobs elsewhere in the EU and I'm pretty sure I'd have lower taxes in most of europe
[21:04:16] eam: but if I leave the US, they will take 50% of my assets -- global assets not just assets in the US
[21:04:23] eam: a lot of people consider the exit tax a theft!
[21:04:37] havenwood: there didn't used to be an exit tax...
[21:04:50] havenwood: they slipped that one in under the radar a few years bax
[21:04:57] eam: some of my coworkers are seeking green cards, mostly canadians
[21:05:25] eam: and they were telling me that when converting to a residency seeking status (say, from a TN or non resident seeking visa)
[21:05:27] havenwood: our Canadian friends just established Panamanian citizenship by buying a hotel room they live in one day per year
[21:05:47] eam: they get into trouble because I think after 3 years on a h1b if they go back home the USA will demand half of all their assets
[21:05:55] eam: even, for example, a home they owned in their home country
[21:05:58] eam: before they came to the US
[21:06:12] eam: so there are like deadlines by which you need to quit and go home
[21:06:48] eam: or be prepared to sell any property you own back home
[21:07:06] eam: there's apparently no cost basis?
[21:24:51] gr33n7007h: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[21:32:17] aScottishBoat: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[21:38:22] helpa: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[21:40:59] _sfiguser: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[21:41:21] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, welcome mate
[21:41:27] aScottishBoat: so yeah man tell me all about why you like perl
[21:43:05] eam: I really like having reference counting instead of a gc
[21:43:36] aScottishBoat: interesting didn't know it did that
[21:43:46] _sfiguser: hello aScottishBoat well actually i find it elegant... and i like the syntax and the fact of being in some way similar to sed or awk or bash
[21:43:58] _sfiguser: i mean i like basically to write perl...
[21:44:09] aScottishBoat: I'm thinking of making a Dancer2 app
[21:44:09] _sfiguser: the thing that i don't like about perl is the community basically
[21:44:15] _sfiguser: they are a little bit "elite"
[21:44:27] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, can we work together ?
[21:44:28] eam: _sfiguser: yeaaah, I'll second that. I don't visit #perl ever
[21:44:48] _sfiguser: eam, they have very strange moods over ther...
[21:44:49] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, man I'd love that. You could show me some of the perl ropes, yeah?
[21:44:55] eam: those guys are fucking stupid
[21:45:01] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, i'm no expert Sir
[21:45:06] eam: not to put too much spin on it
[21:45:14] aScottishBoat: aw man I was under the impression that the perl community was like Ruby's :/
[21:45:15] _sfiguser: eam, ohh god luckily somebody that thinks as i do
[21:45:24] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, no it is not
[21:45:27] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, still you're lightyears ahead of me
[21:45:28] eam: very much not
[21:45:35] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, how do you know that ?
[21:45:55] aScottishBoat: because you said you enjoy writing perl
[21:46:07] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, okok, what do you want to see ?
[21:46:16] _sfiguser: also perl is very good for dirty one-liners
[21:46:27] eam: I really like the implicit iteration variables
[21:46:34] _sfiguser: eam, yeah also that
[21:46:38] mikecmpbll: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[21:46:40] _sfiguser: also it has many shortcuts...
[21:46:47] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, it has the concept of context...
[21:47:07] eam: ruby kinda does with *
[21:47:30] _sfiguser: e.g., if i say print @mylist; it will print the elements of the list but if i do "if (@scalar < 5) { }"
[21:47:49] _sfiguser: sorry i meant "if (@mylist < 5) { ... }"
[21:47:59] _sfiguser: it uses @mylist to mean the number of elements of the array
[21:48:07] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, are you a programmer ?
[21:48:18] _sfiguser: maybe we can work together on some project... i'm learning too...
[21:48:52] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, I'd love that. Yeah, I was a system developer before now, but I'm currently in DevOps lol
[21:49:18] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, also i think another advantage is that perl is installed by default on most *nix machines
[21:49:29] _sfiguser: system developer of what kind ?
[21:49:37] _sfiguser: i mean what did you develop and in which language ?
[21:50:06] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, yes, the fact that the linux specification makes an explicit statement on perl makes me want to use it more. I love linux up and down, so C plus Perl would be ideal for me.
[21:50:16] aScottishBoat: maintaining a server/php stack
[21:51:15] aScottishBoat: what sort of project would you want to make?
[21:51:26] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, ok i'm opened to ideas...
[21:51:35] _sfiguser: ohh also... perl devs love man pages and perldocs
[21:51:48] _sfiguser: so it's more difficult to find recent tutorials
[21:52:07] aScottishBoat: that's okay, I love man pages, as long as they are *well* written ;) :)
[21:52:08] _sfiguser: with respect to ruby/python and so on
[21:52:14] aScottishBoat: good documentation makes me so happy
[21:52:40] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, well these days man pages of linux are not so good... for example have you ever read the ones from freebsd ? they are definitely better
[21:52:54] _sfiguser: anyway... what would you like to do ? i also like devops...
[21:52:59] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, do you use linux? which distro if so?
[21:53:00] _sfiguser: i can help you with some project
[21:53:12] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, well we can spearhead some smallscale devops project if you'd like
[21:53:22] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, well on my laptop i have a debian testing... at work i have a fedora... on another workstation i'm learning suse
[21:53:27] _sfiguser: i also used gentoo on a server
[21:53:35] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, that's ok for me
[21:54:01] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, awesome man I'm actually excited
[21:54:06] naprimer: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[21:54:08] _sfiguser: good to hear
[21:54:12] aScottishBoat: We should find a better place to talk so we don't spam #ruby-offtopic lol
[21:54:46] apeiros: eh, it's fine
[21:55:13] aScottishBoat: apeiros, too late although I'm sure we'll stuff banter in here irregardless
[21:55:34] _sfiguser: this is a nice channel i didn't know... ok now it is in my autojoin
[21:56:10] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, yeah it deserves to be there
[21:56:42] miah: suse makes me so angry
[21:56:45] miah: i cant use it anymore =)
[21:56:48] aScottishBoat: miah: how come?
[21:58:03] _sfiguser: miah, yeah i understand... well it's different.. it used to be easier once...
[21:58:15] _sfiguser: now it's a so hipster distro
[21:58:29] _sfiguser: with all those XFS and Btrfs by default enabled
[21:58:33] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, seriously? I never meet SUSE users
[21:58:59] aScottishBoat: btw i use arch
[21:59:11] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, that's cool
[21:59:29] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser I think it is lol
[21:59:34] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, i always wanted to try that... also the documentation is the greatest
[22:00:52] aScottishBoat: _sfiguser, just dive straight into it, or check out Antergos. It's unlike Manjaro that has a set 'update' period (not like Arch), but it's basically a glorified frontend for installing Arch. Also, it adds *one* database to the package manager with Antergos binaries
[22:00:55] aScottishBoat: and yes, it all rocks
[22:02:25] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, i installed recently freebsd in VM and i have to say, that it is not bad...
[22:02:43] aScottishBoat: but it's all source compiling, right?
[22:03:06] aScottishBoat: I do hear glorious things about *BSD, but... I like my package managers (apt is okay though)
[22:03:28] _sfiguser: aScottishBoat, no you can choose...
[22:03:30] _sfiguser: it's like gentoo
[22:03:42] _sfiguser: you have the ports system where you can compile things... and also binaries..
[22:13:53] Technodrome: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[22:24:50] miah: its been years since i used suse at this point now. but ~2008 their autoyast system was total garbage and i had no end of issues
[22:25:15] miah: like, the kernel they installed detected nics in a different order than the kernel run during their installer
[22:25:34] eam: to be fair, rhel had the same issue
[22:25:58] miah: but i didnt get burned by rhel =)
[22:26:25] miah: (i remotely kickstarted headless servers all across south/central america without issue)
[22:26:51] miah: in a different role i had suse deployed at a bunch of power substations run by a huge power company
[22:27:04] miah: to get a tech out to a substation was.. substantial effort
[22:27:31] miah: installs _could not_ fail, if they did people were mad and a tech had to talk to me on the phone and do ocmputer shit they had no idea how to do
[22:27:36] eam: sub-stantial
[22:28:25] miah: i had to resort to all sorts of fun to figure out the actual order of the nics and grab macs from everything and build customized autoyast profiles for every system
[22:28:58] miah: and autoyast profiles at that point were xml
[22:29:14] miah: just.. lots of possibilities for error
[22:30:25] eam: iirc we fixed it by tying the config by mac in the installer
[22:30:39] eam: which, honestly, is the right answer vs relying on device probe order
[22:31:15] miah: i was a contractor and every hour for me was great, but the employees at the power company really didnt like me
[22:31:33] miah: 'hi im automating your system shitshow of a system'
[22:31:46] miah: s/system shitshow/shitshow/
[22:32:21] miah: 'we manually compiled snort on this new suse box and copied it to linux systems not updated since 2000'
[22:32:30] miah: (systems that werent even suse too)
[22:32:51] miah: anyways. ive mostly burned out the bad memories. there were a few other fun issues
[22:33:02] miah: oh ya, the snort bundled with suse didnt support the 'any' interface
[22:33:40] miah: which is why they compiled it
[22:36:48] miah: im sure suse is fine these days. just.. had so many bad experiences in a short time frame. my previous experience with suse had been 5 years before that with reiserfs which of course failed (not suse fault really)
[22:37:07] miah: dont know many people who didnt have issues with reiserfs
[22:37:16] Technodrome: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[22:42:21] eam: people get reeeal touchy about automating away their day to day
[22:42:41] _sfiguser: eam, anyway do you know some perl ?
[22:42:48] eam: sure thing
[22:44:47] _sfiguser: eam, do you think it has no future as language ?
[22:44:53] _sfiguser: i mean is it dead as somebody says ?
[22:50:10] eam: dead is relative. There are probably more perl programmers now than at any point in history, but I do think it's on the decline
[22:50:19] eam: it's nowhere near as relevant as say the late 90s
[22:50:29] eam: when it was basically the core web language
[22:50:56] eam: declining share in a booming field
[22:51:24] eam: I know a couple companies still heavily use it, apple would be the largest
[22:51:46] miah: perl ruled when cgi-bin was still a thing =)
[22:52:14] miah: i still reach for perl sometimes when i want something more than a shell script but dont want to reach for ruby
[22:52:19] miah: (or ruby isnt available)
[22:52:24] eam: yeah, php ate its lunch when mod_* approaches took off -- I think because the apache module better catered to a shared webhosting environment and ignored permissions
[22:52:46] eam: worse is better
[22:57:25] mikecmpb_: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[23:04:43] _sfiguser: eam, ok so the number of perl programmers is still increasing... right ? but its derivative(slope) is smaller than python/ruby right ?
[23:04:50] _sfiguser: is this what you mean ?
[23:08:13] baweaver: ACTION sees no real point in learning Perl
[23:09:27] eam: I wrote a fun thing on writing perlish ruby, lemmie dig it up
[23:10:12] _sfiguser: baweaver, why ?
[23:10:21] VeryBewitching: Perl is a lot of work imo
[23:10:29] _sfiguser: VeryBewitching, what do you mean ?
[23:10:47] baweaver: I know Ruby, and I know Ruby very well
[23:10:48] VeryBewitching: _sfiguser: I type less in Ruby
[23:11:01] baweaver: Why would I need to know a very similar language?
[23:11:07] _sfiguser: eam, also consider that they say that perl is dying it's like 10 years
[23:11:15] _sfiguser: baweaver, yeah you are right... it makes sense
[23:11:16] VeryBewitching: Perl is not dying
[23:11:21] baweaver: I have good reason to consider Python because Data Science and other such applications
[23:11:27] VeryBewitching: There's little liklihood that it will anytime soon
[23:11:29] _sfiguser: baweaver, me too sir
[23:11:32] eam: VeryBewitching: it got pretty hamstrung by perl6
[23:11:45] eam: "dead" is a relative thing, it's not going to vanish
[23:11:46] _sfiguser: eam, what do you mean ?
[23:11:53] baweaver: but Perl is basically the same itch that needs scratching
[23:12:37] eam: the community is basically split in two, with efforts going into the second-system of perl6 and perl5 is just kind of in maintenance mode
[23:13:09] _sfiguser: eam, no they are just two different languages sir
[23:13:14] _sfiguser: perl6 is very different
[23:13:19] eam: sure they are - and that's why I say the focus split
[23:13:25] _sfiguser: and more rubyish with respect to perl5
[23:13:32] _sfiguser: it's like C and C++
[23:13:47] VeryBewitching: C and C++ are rather different beasts.
[23:13:47] _sfiguser: baweaver, where did you learn ruby ?
[23:13:59] _sfiguser: VeryBewitching, yeah like perl5 and perl 6
[23:14:49] baweaver: Several places
[23:15:02] baweaver: I forget anymore, though _why's poignant guide was one of if not the first
[23:16:02] _sfiguser: baweaver, but still i'm into this data science thing and i think maybe it is better to learn python...
[23:16:09] _sfiguser: to be more specific i'm into machine learning
[23:16:17] _sfiguser: and plenty of frameworks are for pyrhon
[23:16:21] _sfiguser: correct me if i'm wrong
[23:16:22] VeryBewitching: _sfiguser: I guess I meant perl 5 and perl 6 being different is not like C and C++ being different.
[23:16:32] mikecmpbll: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[23:16:42] baweaver: Python, R, MATLAB, and a few others, sure.
[23:16:51] baweaver: Ruby doesn't really do Data Science
[23:16:55] _sfiguser: baweaver, what abtou ruby ?
[23:16:57] _sfiguser: ok but why ?
[23:17:04] baweaver: that said it's also a pretty danged high barrier of entry to get there
[23:17:20] baweaver: Because all the libraries are written in Python, Ruby people didn't pick up that torch.
[23:18:08] VeryBewitching: http://sciruby.com/
[23:18:11] _sfiguser: baweaver, i think it's also because of google... e.g., scikit-learn, theano and tensorflow iirc were born from google and google projects
[23:18:13] VeryBewitching: Efforts are being made
[23:18:17] _sfiguser: and we know google likes python
[23:20:33] _sfiguser: VeryBewitching, yeah and Dart
[23:21:58] VeryBewitching: Dart syntax reminds me a lot of QtQuick
[23:22:00] eam: I keep thinking I want to pick up rust, but I never do
[23:22:10] VeryBewitching: eam: I feel the same about Erlang
[23:22:30] eam: this probably has more to do with me just not having any time for career development
[23:22:49] eam: I used to spend my weekends fooling with new stuff, now I don't
[23:22:52] VeryBewitching: That's time you usually have to make
[23:23:13] eam: yeah indeed
[23:24:14] eam: I have done some pretty simple things with rust and so far I like it as a C replacement
[23:24:35] eam: but I've spent nowhere near enough time with it to weigh in on some of the criticisms I've seen
[23:26:20] VeryBewitching: I really need to focus more on learning about Node (though I don't really want to tbh)
[23:29:09] eam: me either
[23:29:24] mikecmpb_: has joined #ruby-offtopic
[23:56:45] mikecmpbll: has joined #ruby-offtopic