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#ruby - 03 October 2015

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[00:08:42] ypl: is it necessary to know javascript to build good rails apps?
[00:09:48] ypl: pipework: Why not?
[00:10:01] pipework: ypl: Because you can get by without it.
[00:10:04] BraddPitt: Because you don't need any js to write a functioning rails ao
[00:10:19] pipework: It'll certainly help if you're more adept with JS when building rails applications, but I've written rails application that don't even serve HTML.
[00:10:27] ypl: BraddPitt: Not a functioning, but a good rails app.
[00:10:29] pipework: I've also built rails applications that only serve JS and assets.
[00:10:30] BraddPitt: you can just have your rails server send html.erb to the client directly
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[00:11:23] BraddPitt: or just have a rails backed JSON api
[00:11:57] ypl: BraddPitt: How do rails developers use javascript if they dont know it?
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[00:12:15] BraddPitt: I reckon they don't use javascript if they don't know it
[00:12:23] BraddPitt: much in the same way I don't speak Japanese because I don't know that language
[00:12:29] BraddPitt: I don't understand what you're asking
[00:13:23] ypl: BraddPitt: What I'm trying to say is...many rails apps that may be considered to be good apps use javascript so the rails devs must know js.
[00:13:56] BraddPitt: but you asked if it were possible to write a good rails app without javascript
[00:13:59] BraddPitt: and the answer is yes
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[00:14:25] BraddPitt: FWIW, many rails devs DO learn a javascript MVC framework (backbone, angular, ember, etc)
[00:15:00] pipework: ypl: If you want to be hirable as a full stack rails developer, you should know JS.
[00:15:07] ypl: BraddPitt: But in the beginning they just learn rails without any js correct?
[00:15:10] pipework: But you don't have to and I've worked on massive apps that power some big stuff.
[00:15:11] BraddPitt: sadly, pipework wis correct
[00:15:13] pipework: Didn't write JS.
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[00:15:52] BraddPitt: Generally you learn how to make a `vanilla` rails app with JUST rails, then you learn JS/JQuery/client side MVC and use that
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[00:16:14] ypl: I'm actually just getting started with rails actually...
[00:16:16] BraddPitt: so you have your Rails app generating the JSON API and your client side javascript consuming it and rendering your views
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[00:16:42] BraddPitt: I would advise you to continue learning rails, and once you have built a functioning rails app, then learn javascript and then a client side MVC framework
[00:17:13] ypl: BraddPitt: Alright, thanks!
[00:17:21] toretore: ypl: just continue learning rails, without using any js
[00:17:21] BraddPitt: no problem ypl, best of luck
[00:19:14] ypl: BraddPitt: Oh and does rails use SQL?
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[00:19:40] BraddPitt: rails can use any database backend
[00:20:02] BraddPitt: mySQL, sqlite, postgres, memcached, redis, mongodb, couchdb, elasticsearch, etc etc
[00:20:08] BraddPitt: most common is mysql or postgres
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[00:20:30] pipework: ypl: You can learn a lot more and even get started really quickly by visiting the website.
[00:20:40] ypl: BraddPitt: How is data stored and retrieved from the database? SQL or something else?
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[00:21:33] BraddPitt: you can use raw SQL, but more commonly is ActiveRecord - Rails' Object Relational Mapper for SQL databases
[00:21:53] pipework: ypl: /j #rubyonrails
[00:22:03] pipework: They can help you out more there. A lot of us are in both channels.
[00:22:18] BraddPitt: do you sitll need to be authed to talk in there pipework
[00:22:23] pipework: BraddPitt: Yeah.
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[00:22:35] pipework: You can register a nick without an email address though.
[00:23:05] BraddPitt: I think im registered just not authed
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[00:23:19] ypl: thanks a lot for all the info guys. i'm out!
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[00:34:10] tmillc: hello, I'm doing rubykoans and am having difficulty understanding what's happening here: "one two-three".sub(/(t\w*)/) { $1[0, 1] }
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[00:34:34] tmillc: I get what the regexp is matching, and I get that it's sub(pattern) { |match| block } but I don't understand what's in the block
[00:35:29] eam: tmillc: how much of what's in the block do you understand? Where should we start in explaining?
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[00:36:23] tmillc: eam: hmm, I sort of get that $1, $2, ... hold the .. matches? and [0,1] refer to the matches? so pretty vaguely maybe understand very little hah.
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[00:36:38] eam: yes, $1 is what the () parens captured -- the string
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[00:36:48] eam: >> "hello world"[0, 1]
[00:36:49] ruboto: eam # => "h" (https://eval.in/444195)
[00:36:56] DocMAX: if ([message] =~ /attempt/ ) <- this works
[00:37:08] DocMAX: but how can i add more keywords?
[00:37:20] eam: the [] method on a string indexes a substring at those character indexes -- in this case, the first character of whatever string $1 is
[00:37:22] DocMAX: if ([message] =~ /attempt/ OR /error/ OR /fault/ )
[00:37:59] eam: DocMAX: you can use | in a regex to separate patterns
[00:38:24] eam: >> "hello" =~ /won't match|hello/
[00:38:25] tmillc: eam: ok that makes some sense. And I'm seeing "hiiiii"[0,3] #=> "hii", which makes sense
[00:38:25] ruboto: eam # => 0 (https://eval.in/444196)
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[00:39:27] tmillc: ok I think I get it now... and if there were more things to match, like in the case of gsub, the $1 would hold each match as it comes through?
[00:40:32] tmillc: >> "one two-three".sub(/(t\w*)/) { |m| m[0, 1] }
[00:40:33] ruboto: tmillc # => "one t-three" (https://eval.in/444197)
[00:40:38] eam: tmillc: yes, the block is executed once for each time the pattern matches
[00:40:43] tmillc: ok I got it
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[00:40:47] tmillc: thanks a lot
[00:40:50] eam: no prob!
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[00:43:11] shevy: tmillc you can also use MatchData objects and then use [] like [1] or [2] on it if you don't like those $1 or $2
[00:43:30] eam: but what's not to like?!
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[00:44:04] tmillc: shevy: can you give me an example of that?
[00:44:57] tmillc: I don't mind the $1 and $2 now that I see how it relates to { |m| m[] }
[00:45:03] shevy: >> string = 'abc'; /(.)(.)(.)/.match(string)[2]
[00:45:05] ruboto: shevy # => "b" (https://eval.in/444200)
[00:45:39] shevy: I guess =~ is more common though
[00:46:57] tmillc: I haven't really dealt with =~ I don't think
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[00:48:04] heftig: if I signal a ConditionVariable three times, this will wake up three threads waiting on it?
[00:48:09] eam: >> m = "one two three".match(/(?<first>\w+)\s+(?<second>\w+)\s+(?<third>\w+)/); [ m[:first], m[:third] ]
[00:48:10] ruboto: eam # => ["one", "three"] (https://eval.in/444205)
[00:48:33] eam: giving the fields names instead of using positional indexes is also a great feature
[00:49:27] tmillc: eam: that is nice, I'll have to stare at it a bit
[00:49:43] eam: (?<name>pattern) is the essential construct
[00:50:34] tmillc: "match three word-stuffs of one or more length which are separated by space-stuffs of one or more length"? :)
[00:51:14] tmillc: hm or can \s+, \w+ match for 0 length.. no, that's *... I think.
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[00:51:55] eam: tmillc: yeah + is one or more, * is zero or more
[00:52:05] eam: you got it
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[02:06:55] putz54: I need to rewrite an old Perl CGI::Application app in Ruby to run in CGI mode. I'm assuming Sinatra's out as it's based on routes which doesn't fit the cgi model too well. Is Rack and its middleware the only option for cgi apps? CGI::Application uses runmodes which are specified in hidden input fields.
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[02:11:05] toretore: putz54: why does it have to run in cgi mode?
[02:11:31] putz54: toretore: Server restrictions.
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[02:13:43] toretore: putz54: cgi just runs the script and passes http env as env/stdin
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[02:14:30] putz54: toretore: Yes, that's why I assumed Sinatra's not suitable.
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[02:16:19] toretore: sinatra conforms to the rack spec, so you can easily write a cgi <-> rack middleware
[02:16:34] putz54: toretore: .... unless something like site.com/cgi/script.cgi/route can somehow be fed to Sinatra as post 'route'
[02:17:05] toretore: /route in that case will be in ENV['PATH_INFO']
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[02:18:15] toretore: in fact, the rack spec is very similar to cgi: http://www.rubydoc.info/github/rack/rack/master/file/SPEC
[02:18:36] putz54: toretore: So not available as a straightforward *** post '/route' do *** ??
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[02:19:13] putz54: toretore: So I need to just use Rack and forget Sinatra?
[02:19:16] toretore: http://www.rubydoc.info/github/rack/rack/Rack/Handler/CGI
[02:19:20] toretore: sinatra *is* rack
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[02:20:04] putz54: toretore: What I mean is Sinatra uses routing so not the same as vanilla CGI?
[02:20:38] toretore: you are not paying attention to what i'm saying
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[02:21:03] putz54: toretore: I thought anything that uses routing requires a persitent process, like Rails.
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[02:22:25] toretore: routing just parses the PATH_INFO and delegates to handlers depending on its content
[02:22:43] putz54: toretore: Are you saying I munge ENV and extract what I need before feeding it to Sinatra as a normal route?
[02:22:44] toretore: it's a fancy case statement
[02:23:11] havenwood: putz54: I'd suggest taking a look at Roda: http://roda.jeremyevans.net
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[02:23:25] putz54: toretore: OK, great.
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[02:24:01] toretore: putz54: you can run any rack app (including a sinatra app) in cgi mode using Rack::Handler::CGI.run(app)
[02:24:37] toretore: Rack::Handler::CGI in this case just takes the place of another http server/handler such as unicorn or puma
[02:24:51] havenwood: putz54: r.is /(.*)\.rb/ do |template| view template end
[02:25:16] putz54: toretore: Tried that but didn't get it working.
[02:25:18] toretore: putz54: https://tekhne.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/making-a-sinatra-web-application-work-as-a-cgi/
[02:26:09] putz54: toretore: Couldn't get it to execute even though permissions were correct. Anyway, that's a different kind of problem.
[02:26:10] havenwood: toretore: hem, strange - never considered such a thing
[02:26:23] havenwood: toretore: interesting to see!
[02:26:46] putz54: toretore: Great. Sounds like what I need. Thanx
[02:26:49] toretore: havenwood: makes sense too, as the rack env is pretty much the same as the cgi env
[02:27:14] toretore: that was probably on purpose; i never understood why it was like that until now
[02:27:16] putz54: toretore: I read that one earlier.
[02:28:34] putz54: toretore: Is require 'rubygems' still necessary these days?
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[02:28:55] havenwood: putz54: nope, that's 1.8 and earlier only and even 1.9 is past end-of-life
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[02:30:07] havenwood: 2.0 will be end-of-lifed in 143 days.
[02:31:17] havenwood: Only 83 days till 2.3. :)
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[02:33:50] diegoviola: what will be new in 2.3?
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[02:38:13] havenwood: diegoviola: There's lots but if I recall correctly it gets did_you_mean for method suggestions in error output and flags for frozen String and Regexp literals.
[02:38:49] havenwood: diegoviola: Some nifty new methods.
[02:39:34] toretore: i've been waiting years for "did you mean" in ruby
[02:41:34] havenwood: diegoviola: If you've ever needed an Array#bsearch_index you're in luck!
[02:42:04] havenwood: shevy: https://github.com/yuki24/did_you_mean#readme
[02:44:32] havenwood: shevy: Looky looky, I did a thing!: https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/trunk/ChangeLog#L5423-L5426
[02:44:40] diegoviola: havenwood: cool
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[02:45:34] havenwood: diegoviola: So you can have flags in 2.3 to get the frozen literals from 3.0. Nice speed wins now.
[02:45:53] diegoviola: havenwood: cool
[02:45:55] havenwood: And a way to see what breaks. :O
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[02:46:21] tmillc: "did you mean" sounds really neat. I haven't really looked at exceptions yet (a bit new to programming), but they seem like they're objects too?
[02:46:36] toretore: havenwood: is there anywhere i can see what's planned for 2.3?
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[02:46:50] diegoviola: is that like git's did you mean?
[02:46:58] diegoviola: git st -> status, etc, etc
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[02:48:08] tmillc: can you do anything like exception[1] # => line# of the problem ?
[02:50:15] toretore: tmillc: http://www.rubydoc.info/stdlib/core/Exception#backtrace-instance_method
[02:50:18] tmillc: oh I'm reading now that Exception has message, and backtrace methods, and it looks like in backtrace is where that stuff would be
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[02:51:30] Eiam_: I was looking for a project kind of like this https://github.com/atomicobject/piece_pipe, just some kind of pipeline structure for moving data through flows
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[02:51:46] Eiam_: anyone have any experience with piece_pipe or perhaps a successor to it? last updated 3 years ago =/
[02:52:42] havenwood: toretore: Trying to find the core dev meeting notes and failing... I've got to relocate now but I'll find em.
[02:52:53] toretore: not updated recently != out of date
[02:54:45] Eiam_: toretore: thats true, but it makes me more hesitant to invest in it. 3 years ago Ruby 1.9 was still a thing..
[02:54:53] Eiam_: and 1.8.7
[02:54:55] Eiam_: a lot has changed
[02:55:37] Eiam_: toretore: it certainly *looks* like what I was after. but perhaps other things exist under another name that are more commonly used, hence my question
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[02:55:57] toretore: so? that doesn't mean anything
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[02:56:32] toretore: it looks to me like an implementation of the reactive stuff, you might google that
[02:57:50] toretore: Eiam_: you can do a very simple version of that using fibers
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[02:59:52] Eiam_: looks like https://github.com/ReactiveX/RxRuby
[03:00:09] Eiam_: but peice_pipe does seem more succinct. will have to experiment a bit then
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[03:00:15] Eiam_: and look at fibers as well
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[03:10:59] drbrain: fibers are a real pain to use
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[03:29:05] Eiam_: yeah.. https://github.com/thbar/kiba maybe a better fit
[03:29:11] Eiam_: it is slightly more ETL
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[04:49:12] mghaig: I'm writing an implementation for a linked list, I have instance methods #append_element and #insert_element_at if the user passes #insert_element_at an index that is the the tail of the list, I want to just call the #append_element method... do I need to call that with self.append_element( new_node ) or can I skip the self?
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[04:51:00] [k-: you can skip it
[04:51:03] ruboto: Why don't you try it and see for yourself?
[04:51:37] [k-: you can already use an array as a linked list with shift and unshift
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[04:53:46] mghaig: thanks. and ya I should've just written it all out and tried it. ya I know but I'm in a data structures class and I'm doing all of my projects in ruby also for practice and such
[04:57:51] [k-: one of the most useful ways to learn, is to practice. To practice, means to do & try
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[04:59:59] Napear: true fact... I think I spend more time on hackerrank than I do with my wife
[05:01:21] [k-: that's why we don't know women!
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[05:12:16] pontiki: you men folk
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[05:14:17] Napear: what!? ... she's busy too
[05:14:47] pontiki: exactly :)
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[07:52:50] tmillc: rubykoans is really fun
[07:54:11] tmillc: also random thought, do you think it's something inherent to the language, or accident, that python became more associated with scientific computing? Moreso than ruby I mean. They don't seem like dissimilar languages but I'm not well versed in python.
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[08:01:58] tmillc: also if anyone can provide any intuition on the behavior illustrated here, I would like that https://gist.github.com/anonymous/66bb88328cad14792f9c
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[08:48:47] jhass: tmillc: python is a quite explicit language and to me it feels such traits somehow get more popular in that community
[08:50:03] tmillc: jhass: hmm I see, yes. Easier to pass on explicit verbal/written instructions and algorithms
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[11:09:37] ruby-lang708: how could I confirm if mysql2 gem is successfully installed ? --I am on windows and new to ruby (Past PHP dev experince)
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[11:11:23] ruby-lang708: after installation it shows successfully installed gem but when pulling on browser it says gem::loadError
[11:13:02] ruby-lang708: can anyone help ?
[11:17:14] jamon_: write a small script which requires the gem and does something trivial with it
[11:17:40] jamon_: or see of the gem exists on the install directory
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[11:18:20] jamon_: and how+what are you running on the brower - what acctually is failing
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[11:18:52] ruby-lang708: Specified 'mysql2' for database adapter, but the gem is not loaded. Add `gem 'mysql2'` to your Gemfile (and ensure its version is at the minimum required by ActiveRecord).
[11:18:59] ruby-lang708: I get the above error
[11:19:58] jamon_: so you are using rails? dev or prod?
[11:20:15] jamon_: did you restart the app after modifying the Gemfile?
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[11:20:24] jamon_: and did you bundle install
[11:20:34] jamon_: and maybe run the app with bundle exec
[11:21:01] ruby-lang708: I have not done any changes to the gemfile , it already contails mysql2 and I have restarted the server sevral times
[11:21:24] ruby-lang708: I have set the variables to all environment
[11:22:08] ruby-lang708: and set the database: app (which i have created in phpmyadmin)
[11:23:12] jamon_: how did you install the gem; bundle install in the directory which contains the Gemfile?
[11:23:19] jamon_: and how are you running the app
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[11:24:15] ruby-lang708: I have created the app in a directory and then I ran bundle install its returned "Your bundle is complete" and then I am using rails s command to run the app
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[11:26:29] ruby-lang708: providing gemfile and database yml file http://pastebin.com/W7K4yNJf
[11:26:30] ruboto: ruby-lang708, we in #ruby do not like pastebin.com, I reposted your paste to gist for you: https://gist.github.com/e4beab6141e74e84961a
[11:26:30] ruboto: pastebin.com loads slowly for most, has ads which are distracting and has terrible formatting.
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[11:31:05] ruby-lang708: @Jamo__ you there ?
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[11:49:14] shevy: ruby ruby ruby
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[12:35:11] Flex: When I look at $:, the current directory is not in the load path. How then is ruby able to load files that are in the current directory?
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[12:37:18] Zarthus: ruby removed '.' from the load path for 'security reasons'
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[12:39:00] Flex: Zarthus: Then how am I able to load a file using load 'file.rb'
[12:39:15] Zarthus: require_relative or add it to your load path
[12:39:45] Flex: Zarthus: No...what I'm trying to say is... "load 'file.rb'" works when '.' is not in the load path. How?
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[12:40:40] leitz: Is http://guides.rubygems.org/what-is-a-gem/ , first file tree image, the "standard" way to organize code for a project?
[12:41:12] Zarthus: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.2.3/Kernel.html#method-i-load - it expects a filename, i don't know if it looks in the load path at all, flex
[12:41:16] jhass: flex: cannot reproduce http://cloud.aeshna.de/u/mrzyx/screenshots/screenshot_20151003_144108.png
[12:41:56] jhass: leitz: yeah
[12:42:04] Zarthus: jhass: works for me
[12:42:17] Zarthus: what is your ruby version?
[12:42:17] jhass: Zarthus: ruby -v?
[12:42:23] Zarthus: ruby 2.1.5p273 (2014-11-13) [i386-linux-gnu]
[12:42:41] leitz: jhass, thanks! Trying to be less of a newbie.
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[12:43:00] jhass: Zarthus: but http://cloud.aeshna.de/u/mrzyx/screenshots/screenshot_20151003_144254.png
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[12:43:29] Zarthus: jhass: what OS?
[12:43:30] Flex: jhass: load 'foo.rb' will work. try it.
[12:43:35] jhass: Zarthus: arch
[12:43:47] Zarthus: oh, you're just calling `load 'foo'`?
[12:44:03] jhass: well yeah sure
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[12:44:24] Flex: jhass: Yeah. I'm wondering how it's working if '.' is not in the load path...
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[12:45:39] jhass: maybe rb_find_file prepends an implicit ./ if the extension is given? In any case it's undocumented behavior, don't rely on it (and don't use load in the first place unless you know exactly what you're doing)
[12:46:31] Flex: jhass: I checked $: after loading the file. '.' doesn't get added afterwards either. Weird...
[12:48:06] jhass: flex: does load "/foo/bar/baz.rb" working without "/foo/bar/" being in the load path surprise you too?
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[12:51:30] Flex: jhass: No since that is an absolute path...
[12:53:06] Flex: jhass: Using load allows you to load files more than once so you can edit a file and then load it again in the same session. require only loads it once. that's the main reason for using load ....
[12:53:22] jhass: yes, and it's error prone
[12:53:32] Flex: jhass: True.
[12:53:40] jhass: give http://blog.rkh.im/code-reloading a read
[12:54:14] jhass: anyway, what I'm saying is that load appears to treat "foo.rb" as "./foo.rb"
[12:54:20] Flex: jhass: Also, when we require a file, does it run the file in the current script or does it copy everything from the required file into the current script?
[12:54:59] jhass: neither, require is just like load except with a guard that prevents loading a file twice
[12:55:34] jhass: local variables don't propagate from one file to another, so either picture is misleading
[12:55:48] jhass: Ruby just parses and executes the file
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[12:57:09] Flex: jhass: So basically requiring a file just runs the file, correct?
[12:57:26] jhass: yes, keeping the global(!) context the same of course
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[13:04:23] jhass: I suppose this http://rxr.whitequark.org/mri/source/load.c#675 -> http://rxr.whitequark.org/mri/source/file.c#5275 is why it works
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[13:05:19] leitz: I'm reading the rspec book and trying to figure out the directory structure under lib. SO far it seems to have "myproject/lib/myproject/code_to_run.rb" Is there a reason for the nesting?
[13:05:48] jhass: leitz: the reason is that your code should be under module Myproject
[13:05:49] leitz: in code_to_run.rb there's a Module and Class defined.
[13:06:00] jhass: see http://guides.rubygems.org/name-your-gem/
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[13:06:14] leitz: ACTION goes to read
[13:06:20] jhass: the lib/ directory of your gem is added to the load path
[13:06:43] jhass: so a require "myproject/code_to_run" expands to lib/myproject/code_to_run.rb
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[13:09:59] leitz: So the runnable code in bin/ adds lib to the LOAD_PATH, and then calls stuff?
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[13:12:25] jhass: some do that, but if your gem is installed rubygems will do so there's no real need for it outside development
[13:12:37] leitz: I've been putting structure code in lib, like class definitions. Putting executable code in bin.
[13:12:47] jhass: and in development you can also do it manually, ruby -Ilib bin/foo or let bundler do it, bundle exec bin/foo
[13:13:12] leitz: The book is saying the executable code in lib/myproject/mycode.rb
[13:13:49] jhass: my bin/foo stuff usually ends up as require "projct/cli"; Project::Cli.new(ARGV)
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[13:15:58] leitz: jhass, do you have some code I could look at?
[13:17:36] jhass: actually nothing public that has something in bin/
[13:18:33] leitz: Okay. My project has a bunch of small tasks in bin. That is what I am used to.
[13:18:44] leitz: It could probably be better...
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[13:53:28] shevy: your project could be better
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[13:57:42] shevy: the beauty of bin/ files is that they can be very small, you can just delegate towards code parts residing in the lib/ hierarchy
[13:58:07] shevy: something like: TopNamespaceHere.run(ARGV)
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[14:02:45] pontiki: indeed, that's typically all that are in my bin/*
[14:02:51] pontiki: well, exe/* now
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[14:04:53] pontiki: makes testing so much easier
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[14:10:30] jhass: I dunno what's up with that, /bin/ and /usr/bin contain script since forever
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[14:15:57] Flex: What is rake and what is it used for?
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[14:16:22] shevy: make for Makefile
[14:16:24] shevy: rake for Rakefile
[14:16:47] TTilus: flex: build language for ruby
[14:17:03] TTilus: flex: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/724724/what-exactly-is-rake
[14:18:09] TTilus: flex: rake is designed to do similar kind of stuff than make is, syntax is ruby
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[14:20:26] TTilus: pontiki: for really small scale stuff something like this http://pastie.org/10458201 works just fine, no need to complicate stuff
[14:21:14] TTilus: the same file serves as a cli binary, loadable library and may very well also contain all the necessary documentation
[14:21:54] Flex: So a build tool is generally used for compilation?
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[14:22:50] Flex: whoops. wrong irc.
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[14:24:49] [k-: channel*
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[14:25:47] jhass: now I wonder what the right one would be
[14:25:55] shevy: webchat is weird
[14:26:41] TTilus: build != compile
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[14:28:01] shevy: flex will never know that!
[14:30:43] TTilus: oh my! sackcloth and ashes!
[14:31:33] pontiki: TTilus: i never have anything that simple
[14:31:39] pontiki: why would i bother?
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[14:32:19] TTilus: pontiki: it was just an example
[14:32:46] TTilus: pontiki: you know what works for you, that pattern might not
[14:33:14] pontiki: for anything that simple, i'm just writing a bash script
[14:33:49] TTilus: highly likely
[14:34:54] TTilus: it is still good pattern to know, since it is fairly common and you are prolly gonna see it if you dig in to non trivial amount of open source code
[14:34:59] shevy: that explains the leading p in your nick
[14:35:05] shevy: if you'd use ruby you'd be rontiki
[14:35:44] pontiki: indeed, i wrote some like that myself, then found it too difficult to unit test them
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[14:36:15] pontiki: shevy: does that mean you're language is sea sharp?
[14:36:30] TTilus: pontiki: how come too difficult to unit test?
[14:36:47] shevy: I am feeling hipster and will go with swift for now
[14:37:01] shevy: go ... swift .. man, we can soon build full sentences with the names of programming languages alone
[14:37:03] TTilus: pontiki: the whole point is that you can require it in your test script and only use the api
[14:37:04] pontiki: you load the entire bin file to do a unit test?
[14:37:43] pontiki: that means you're executing the entire script each time
[14:38:05] TTilus: pontiki: "entire bin file" has totally two more lines of code than respective lib (if that would be split into separate file) :D
[14:38:16] TTilus: pontiki: no, i'm not executing
[14:38:20] TTilus: pontiki: read the last line
[14:38:28] TTilus: pontiki: that's the whole point of the pattern
[14:38:39] leitz: if myproject/bin/myscript.rb requires myproject/lib/mylib.rb, why does the LOAD_PATH exansion require '../../lib' and not '../lib'?
[14:38:51] leitz: exansion/expansion
[14:39:10] TTilus: pontiki: it runs CLI only if the file is executed as a script, not when it is required as a lib
[14:39:23] shevy: do you really need to use LOAD_PATH directly leitz?
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[14:40:03] pontiki: oh, right, i see
[14:40:05] leitz: shevy, still figuring that out. jhass and I chatted about project structure but i'm still scratching my head a bit.
[14:40:16] [k-: require_relative
[14:41:09] shevy: yeah you should not need it for the most part
[14:41:39] jhass: leitz: rough guess: you expand relative to __FILE__ instead of __dir__
[14:41:47] jhass: and I still recommend -Ilib or bundle exec
[14:42:22] TTilus: \o_ for bundle exec
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[14:43:39] leitz: ACTION goes to do some testing.
[14:43:42] shevy: Travis CI requires github?
[14:43:55] shevy: I am looking at http://docs.travis-ci.com/user/languages/ruby/ right now
[14:45:17] pontiki: i believe so -- i've never looked at using anything but github
[14:45:49] shevy: yeah, I have to overcome my laziness one day and get everything on github
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[14:46:32] pontiki: http://docs.travis-ci.com/user/repository-providers/
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[14:47:03] leitz: shevy, jhass. __dir__ and require_relative don't work onRuby 1.8.7. :)
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[14:47:11] leitz: Far as I can tell, anyway.
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[14:47:27] shevy: leitz I did not say anything about __dir__ or require_relative
[14:47:43] shevy: I recommend oldschool - setup.rb :)
[14:47:46] adaedra: __dir__ is File.dirname(__FILE__), though.
[14:47:52] jhass: leitz: and I don't work on Ruby 1.8
[14:48:01] shevy: leitz http://i.loveruby.net/en/projects/setup/
[14:48:13] adaedra: And iirc, require_relative is default require behavior in 1.8.7
[14:48:30] leitz: ACTION changes his request for a URL from shevy to a comment about going to read.
[14:48:43] jhass: adaedra: not quite, require_relative is relative to the current file, 1.8 has . (the current working directory) in the load path
[14:49:03] adaedra: do I didn't recall correctly, thanks.
[14:49:08] shevy: leitz setup.rb is really easy to use, and for your gem-structured projects, you only need "require" really. never have to use require_relative or have to tamper with $LOAD_PATH
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[14:50:11] pontiki: "what version of ruby are you using" is the new "a/s/l" ?
[14:50:56] jhass: we could just drop that question and assume a sane/supported one. Their problem for using outdated stuff, not ours
[14:50:56] adaedra: should be o/v/m: Os, Version, install Method.
[14:52:00] shevy: Beer, Now, Drink.
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[14:52:29] pontiki: saturday morning, beer o'clock is all day long?
[14:52:41] shevy: oh oh oh it's soon evening here
[14:52:59] shevy: but beer isn't great for programming anyway
[14:53:26] pontiki: get that balmer peak on
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[14:59:34] leitz: shevy, setup.rb will take some time to figure out.
[14:59:41] leitz: Doesn't look bad, though.
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[15:02:00] shevy: leitz it's really simple... keep a local copy of it somewhere
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[15:02:07] shevy: I use aliases for it, for instance "r2" combines:
[15:02:31] shevy: (first assuming that setup.rb is in the working directory)
[15:02:39] shevy: ruby setup.rb --quiet config; ruby setup.rb --quiet setup; ruby setup.rb --quiet install; rm setup.rb; rm InstalledFiles; rm .config
[15:02:45] shevy: half of these are probably not needed
[15:02:52] shevy: I was just too lazy to see what I really need
[15:04:05] shevy: the second way would be to build a .gem file. you could probably even write a dump-script that generates a .gemspec file based on the name of the working directory, if you only want to test anyway, but this is pretty much what setup.rb will do too
[15:04:16] leitz: I'm into the section of programming that often causes me issues. Breaking a large project into smaller, manageable bits.
[15:04:31] shevy: there is also probably a clean way to uninstall via setup.rb but I use setup.rb very superficially
[15:05:05] jhass: I don't understand what's so hard about doing ruby -Ilib bin/foo
[15:05:17] shevy: yeah, same here. I am porting old ruby code of my biggest project to a new infrastructure right now. it is tedious and slow...
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[15:08:25] leitz: jhass, my scripts are executable and unclude the #!/usr/bin/env ruby line.
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[15:09:21] leitz: Not sure how to use the -llib bit with that.
[15:09:48] shevy: a nice word
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[15:10:21] shevy: you won't need -I anyway if you have a gem-structured directory
[15:10:23] [k-: echo "ruby -llib bin/foo" > foo
[15:10:58] jhass: foo: Permission denied
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[15:11:25] [k-: your face is a deniable permission
[15:12:20] leitz: ACTION 's typing gets worse as he gets tired.
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[15:15:28] shevy: impending collapse!
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[15:15:39] shevy: if only we could code during our sleep
[15:16:08] [k-: shevy: that boy can
[15:16:17] [k-: he dreams code!
[15:16:22] [k-: remember that video
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[15:21:52] shevy: that psycho
[15:22:07] shevy: he wants to work at apple after university
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[15:44:23] asad_: Can someone please explain this in simple words: http://ctrlv.it/id/2435/3062215145
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[15:44:50] [k-: a horrible code sharing website
[15:45:06] [k-: (for mobile)
[15:46:15] adaedra: asad_: when you require a file, you import what is in the file the same way as you were copying the contents into current file, but in global scope
[15:46:32] [k-: it means that requiring/loading works in one way
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[15:46:56] adaedra: asad_: so if you require a file that declares A when you're in B::C (i.e module B; module C; require 'a'; end; end), it will import A as ::A, not B::C::A
[15:46:59] [k-: the loaded file cannot access the stuff in the file that loaded it
[15:47:14] adaedra: Which would happen if you copy A declaration in place of the require
[15:47:19] [k-: but the file thst loaded it can access the stuff in the loaded file
[15:47:37] asad_: adaedra: What's the global scope?
[15:47:50] adaedra: asad_: outside of any module/class/method.
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[15:48:21] adaedra: # This is global scope
[15:48:34] asad_: adaedra: Why aren't variables defined in a file also loaded if all it does is copies the file into the global scope?
[15:48:38] adaedra: module A; "This is A scope"; end
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[15:49:40] [k-: variables defined in global scope can only be accessed in global scope
[15:49:56] adaedra: because my description may simplify it a bit, let me check
[15:51:09] adaedra: yeah, variables are local and are not transferred into global scope on require
[15:51:29] [k-: really?
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[15:53:52] asad_: http://ctrlv.it/id/2435/3062215145 is from The Ruby Programming Language book by Matz.
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[15:57:14] leitz: shevy, I'm feeling the "work on old code" drag. Sadly, it's all my code...
[15:57:33] shevy: it helps to follow some kind of structured layout rigorously
[15:57:39] leitz: In some places the same data is a string, in others an array.
[15:57:49] leitz: some bits are concatenated.
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[15:58:19] shevy: for instance, I tend to do all include and extend statements before "def initialize" comes, in a class
[15:58:22] leitz: Yeah, I need to sit down and work on the structure, and then convert the two data sources to the same format.
[15:58:37] shevy: aliases on the other hand I always have right after the method definition
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[15:58:57] leitz: I'm more "use data the same way" right now.
[15:59:04] shevy: leitz String versus Arrays?
[15:59:29] shevy: yeah, the data shapes the class definition immensely
[16:00:03] shevy: ruby becomes like syntactic sugar over data
[16:00:32] leitz: Yeah. A character has a set of skills. In one json file that set is a string. In another it's a nested hash. Not array, sorry.
[16:01:06] leitz: In one the first and last names are separate, in the other the same string.
[16:01:31] leitz: More funny than anything.
[16:02:04] shevy: a hash is ideally suited for that really
[16:02:18] shevy: { strength: 55, dexterity: 33, constitution: 12 }
[16:02:36] leitz: Yeah, the hash was the later code, after I had learned a bit.
[16:02:39] shevy: you could also keep this as a multiline string, and parse it into a hash constituent like
[16:03:06] leitz: Your first character was better. :)
[16:03:08] shevy: and so forth. I use this for help options
[16:04:05] leitz: Well, really, it's a chance for me to figure out my data and refator the code.
[16:04:06] shevy: I even found this to be more readable than the = <<-EOF variant
[16:04:15] shevy: refather your code?
[16:04:28] leitz: Beats watching sports on tv.
[16:04:38] leitz: Yeah, put the code out for adoption.
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[16:12:46] asad_: What does this mean: "Files loaded with load or require are executed in a new top-level scope that is different from the one in which load or require was invoked."
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[16:13:22] jhass: asad_: mainly that you can't access local variables defined in one in the other
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[17:02:58] shevy: so what is your take on the different hash syntax... aka { :foo => :bar } versus { foo: :bar }
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[17:04:39] miah: i use { foo: bar } because i like typing less and always use symbols for keys
[17:04:52] miah: but people <3 arguing endlessly about that
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[17:05:58] shevy: reminds me of the monty python argument clinic
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[17:10:34] baweaver: I put it in a style guide and tell people to stop whining
[17:11:06] miah: then people keep editing they style guide rules
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[17:11:41] baweaver: So I say there has to be a vote on it and lock it otherwise
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[17:12:19] miah: i still have to deal with 100 line methods
[17:12:21] [k-: baweaver is experienced
[17:12:36] miah: oh i tried the 'vote' thing. the problem is, im the only person that cares about style
[17:12:45] baweaver: mainly in failing Jenkins builds until they play nice
[17:12:55] miah: so i stopped caring about everybody elses code
[17:12:57] baweaver: I just get the manager to buy in
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[17:13:36] miah: basically, the way i see people operate: 'get it done' > 'make it pretty and tested'
[17:14:04] miah: ignore the whole thing about 'tech debt' and 'now its a problem to deal with later'
[17:14:30] VeryBewitching: baweaver is correct, get the manager to buy in. Tell them why they should care about it and make a convincing argument.
[17:14:37] miah: ya, i did =)
[17:14:44] miah: we now run rubocop everywhere
[17:14:51] miah: but every team has a different style guide
[17:15:19] miah: and people freely update .rubocop.yml per project when rules are inconvienent
[17:15:22] flyinprogrammer: >but every team has a different style guide
[17:15:35] miah: cant change culture
[17:15:55] miah: you can influence it, but only if you have the ability to influence
[17:15:59] VeryBewitching: Yes you can, so long as you're willing to yell loudly enough to potentially lose your job :D
[17:16:06] miah: i yelled loudly
[17:16:08] miah: now i have no friends
[17:16:25] miah: add in working remotely
[17:16:33] miah: and its a lonely working experience
[17:16:53] miah: so i just gave up talking about that stuff and i have fewer problems 'with people' now i guess
[17:16:53] VeryBewitching: I prefer working from my home office, I tend to get a lot more done that way.
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[17:17:36] [k-: or does the office get a lot more done that way? >:)
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[17:17:44] miah: like i said
[17:17:51] miah: basically, the way i see people operate: 'get it done' > 'make it pretty and tested'
[17:17:55] VeryBewitching: [k-: Well, it's mostly government, so no not at all :D
[17:18:12] [k-: but you're VeryBewitching
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[17:18:25] VeryBewitching: I tend to be, ys.
[17:18:50] VeryBewitching: That doesn't make salaried government workers get anything done quickly, on time or correctly.
[17:19:14] miah: .gov work moves at the speed of glaciers
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[17:20:18] VeryBewitching: The Canadian government labour pool is like watching a kindergarten class do finger painting. It's messy and never ends up looking like anything by the time they're done (if they ever finish.)
[17:21:00] VeryBewitching: Anyway, miah, I would suggest you find a team that you can become sympatico with. No job is worth daily frustration.
[17:21:10] miah: i havent found that
[17:21:22] miah: i've determined that im the problem, so i just deal with it.
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[17:44:57] avdi: I used to work at a gov't contractor, which is almost like working for gov't. There's a reason I left.
[17:45:28] avdi: Well, several dozen really, but culture was in many ways the biggest.
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[18:03:10] shevy: the madness https://rubygems.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=commandline
[18:03:18] shevy: so we have:
[18:03:20] shevy: "commandline"
[18:03:29] shevy: "CommandLine"
[18:03:35] shevy: "commandline2"
[18:04:46] pwnd_nsfw: Tools to facilitate confusion of ...
[18:05:19] shevy: the second one is admittedly creative :)
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[18:09:13] leitz: Is there a more Ruby way to express these lines? https://github.com/LeamHall/CT_Character_Generator/blob/merge_blue_dragons/bin/dragons_to_soldiers.rb#L44-L48
[18:09:28] miah: lol. that first one is a rubyforge project too
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[18:10:02] miah: but here it is
[18:10:03] miah: https://github.com/jfreeze/commandline
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[18:11:04] miah: there are like, 9000 command line parsing libraries for ruby.
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[18:12:36] bjorgen: is it recommended to use a full web server setup like nginx and puma for rails development?
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[18:12:57] juniorgoat: should i join a programming bootcamp ran by scientologists? (please no trolling)
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[18:15:20] yorickpeterse: bjorgen: for development you can just run `rails s`
[18:15:25] yorickpeterse: which uses WEBRick by default
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[18:15:28] yorickpeterse: which is good enough
[18:15:32] yorickpeterse: juniorgoat: no
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[18:15:47] yorickpeterse: juniorgoat: I'd stay away from anything hosted by scientologists
[18:15:47] avdi: juniorgoat: no
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[18:16:17] jhass: juniorgoat: and if you ignore our advice please take a hidden cam and upload everything to youtube
[18:16:38] yorickpeterse: then post it to /r/atheism for maximum karma
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[18:17:47] juniorgoat: jhass: the bootcamp has great reviews but i'm concerned about scientology
[18:17:48] juniorgoat: https://www.switchup.org/bootcamps/the-tech-academy
[18:18:18] miah: looks like you can take it online
[18:18:34] juniorgoat: but they prefer you to take it in person
[18:18:51] yorickpeterse: sounds familiar
[18:18:52] miah: sure, but if they offer it as an option you're still free to choose it
[18:19:08] juniorgoat: i'd rather go in person and receive help in person, that's my preference
[18:19:13] jhass: juniorgoat: consider reviews staged, especially if scientology is involved
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[18:19:16] juniorgoat: but i don't want to become a scientologist
[18:19:28] juniorgoat: jhass: what makes you so sure?
[18:19:28] yorickpeterse: juniorgoat: also how do you know it's run by scientology?
[18:19:33] miah: well, if you're in portland im sure there are also other options
[18:19:37] avdi: surely there are other choices
[18:19:58] juniorgoat: yorickpeterse: a little googling and facebooking reveals it's ran by scientologists
[18:20:19] juniorgoat: it's also greatly priced and self-paced
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[18:20:20] bjorgen: ok, thanks
[18:20:24] jhass: juniorgoat: 50% of all positive reviews being fake is a general good assumption in the internet. Add the factor of a sect and well...
[18:20:25] yorickpeterse: juniorgoat: ah
[18:20:45] yorickpeterse: maybe try code/khan academy instead?
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[18:21:07] juniorgoat: i would like someone to help me out with my resume
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[18:21:19] juniorgoat: i've dropped out of college and i'm looking for other options
[18:21:26] miah: there are other code bootcamps in portland
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[18:21:50] juniorgoat: the reason i like this code bootcamp is because it's self-paced and competitively priced
[18:22:04] juniorgoat: and they guarantee you finding a job after completing the course
[18:22:11] miah: also, im sure there are meetups that provide similar services for free
[18:22:11] avdi: If someone offers you something for way less than the competition, you might reasonably question whether it's a loss-leader, and if so, for what. Especially if you already have a suspicion of what it's a loss-leader for.
[18:22:20] juniorgoat: everything is great about it except for the scientology part
[18:22:23] jhass: juniorgoat: and I mean even if it's kept ideology free, it's reason enough to boycott it
[18:22:52] miah: http://pdxruby.org/
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[18:23:08] juniorgoat: they make you take an iq test and a personality test both of which are found in this book http://www.scribd.com/doc/91857629/Scientology-OCA-IQ-Test#scribd
[18:23:20] miah: looks like they have
[18:23:20] miah: http://hackandhelp.com/
[18:23:48] shevy: juniorgoat you need to test your personality before you are eligible for a job?
[18:23:51] jhass: juniorgoat: yeah, that's a big red flag on its own
[18:24:09] miah: shevy: not job, code bootcamp
[18:24:11] jhass: "personality test" is scientologies primary recruiting/missionary tool
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[18:24:22] avdi: Oh my gosh, it turns out you are really depressed, and that's going to limit your career growth! We can help you with that...
[18:25:33] jhass: juniorgoat: no joke, watch south park's episode on scientology, it's quite informative
[18:25:46] jhass: then what is there to discuss
[18:25:50] juniorgoat: i didn't really understand it though
[18:26:30] jhass: no harm in watching south park episodes a couple of times
[18:26:31] juniorgoat: what i got from it is that they worship extraterrestrials and believe in planet x right?
[18:26:50] avdi: juniorgoat: did you see the part with the "personality test"?
[18:26:55] jhass: what you should've gotten from it that it's just a cover story for controlling people and making money
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[18:27:13] juniorgoat: avdi: it was probably in the episode but i might have zoned out and not paid attention to it
[18:27:23] juniorgoat: oh thanks jhass
[18:27:25] jhass: watch it again with full attention
[18:28:19] avdi: juniorgoat: scientology is a wealth cult that extracts 10s of thousands of dollars from their members over the course of years by selling them "training" that they "need" to have in order to fix all their personality "problems". And when people become suspicious, they are threatened with having everyone they know turn against them.
[18:28:24] juniorgoat: what can someone do without a college degree as a programmer?
[18:28:42] avdi: juniorgoat: pretty much everything someone with a degree can do
[18:28:58] toretore: a lot of good programmers don't have degrees
[18:29:10] avdi: juniorgoat: I don't have a degree. A lot of the successful programmers I know don't have one, and of the ones who do, most don't have a CS degree.
[18:29:13] juniorgoat: but if you don't have a degree aren't you inferior in american society?
[18:29:22] avdi: juniorgoat: uh... no?
[18:29:23] jhass: avdi: and that's formulated mildly
[18:29:45] jhass: it gets _a lot_ worse if your family becomes suspicious or you try to quit
[18:29:48] juniorgoat: i wish i didn't suffer from depression because i failed junior college
[18:29:49] avdi: juniorgoat: ...and of the ones I know who actually have a CS degree, they often say they didn't really need it.
[18:29:57] juniorgoat: and now i have no idea what i should be doing
[18:30:09] juniorgoat: i'm already really old and have no sense of direction
[18:30:15] toretore: juniorgoat: if i were to hire a programmer, their degree would have almost no significance to me
[18:30:16] juniorgoat: i think i would be sucked into scientology
[18:30:39] juniorgoat: so the pay would be the same with or without a degree right?
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[18:31:00] avdi: juniorgoat: in any job you want to be working at, absolutely
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[18:31:27] avdi: juniorgoat: in fact, it's less and less common for programming employers to even care about your degree. They want to see what you can do.
[18:31:36] juniorgoat: what's the point of a degree then and why does everyone say it's important?
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[18:31:49] toretore: juniorgoat: if the people trying to hire you put that much weight on university degrees there's a big chance you don't want to work there
[18:31:50] jhass: juniorgoat: yes, please stay as far away from scientology as you can, especially with a depression, it's very dangerous. And won't be cheaper than seeing a psychologist
[18:32:18] juniorgoat: toretore: what's the reason for that?
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[18:32:36] avdi: juniorgoat: FWIW, I only have a few years of junior college under my belt. No degree. A grand total of three software courses.
[18:32:56] toretore: juniorgoat: to me, it show that they don't understand what makes someone a good programmer, and that probably means they don't understand other things as well
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[18:33:08] juniorgoat: jhass: i'll stay away from it... do you know of any programming bootcamps that offer job assistance and have a self-paced curriculum with instructors to help you out?
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[18:33:29] jhass: no, not in your area anyway, I sit on the other side of the globe ;)
[18:33:32] avdi: juniorgoat: I used to work at a big company where they couldn't promote me unless I got a degree. It had a terrible working culture, and leaving them (after 9 years, sadly) was the best career decision I ever made.
[18:33:50] juniorgoat: why was it the best career decision you've ever made?
[18:33:58] toretore: juniorgoat: what's the reason you don't want to just learn by yourself online?
[18:34:12] toretore: it's what most programmers do
[18:34:12] juniorgoat: i want to but i'm not good at learning to code online by myself
[18:34:32] toretore: it assumes a certain level of interest and passion of course
[18:34:42] juniorgoat: toretore: i've tried
[18:34:47] avdi: juniorgoat: because it led to me being employed at places with far healthier cultures where I actually enjoyed myself, and also to being paid way more money.
[18:34:52] juniorgoat: and i've been learning for more than a year already
[18:35:08] juniorgoat: i haven't gotten very far
[18:35:14] juniorgoat: my math skills need to improve
[18:35:24] toretore: i have no math skills
[18:35:34] juniorgoat: do you know linear algebra?
[18:35:34] jhass: if you're able to at least attempt things on your own and demonstrate that you did, you just found the perfect place to ask for assistance when you get stuck ;)
[18:35:39] avdi: juniorgoat: you don't need math skills to code. I can tell you that from experience.
[18:35:42] toretore: i don't even know what that is
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[18:35:53] juniorgoat: toretore: you're not trolling right?
[18:36:02] toretore: i don't know math
[18:36:06] yorickpeterse: juniorgoat: you don't need advanced maths knowledge to get a programming job
[18:36:24] beast: some elite coders know math
[18:36:28] avdi: highest math I ever learned formally was Algebra 1, and I don't really remember most of it
[18:36:29] yorickpeterse: 80% of Ruby developers can't even use the modulo operator
[18:36:33] toretore: i even ( ) my arithmetics in ruby because i don't know the precedence rules
[18:36:35] BraddPitt: ahahahah yorickpeterse
[18:36:40] BraddPitt: same toretore
[18:36:48] jhass: math can sometimes help to find the most efficient solution to something, but usually you have someone around who knows enough
[18:36:48] BraddPitt: I failed college trig twice
[18:36:49] avdi: all the math I actually *needed* I learned on the job
[18:37:52] juniorgoat: but what if i want someone to teach me while using screenhero or something like that?
[18:37:58] juniorgoat: can i still come here?
[18:38:22] yorickpeterse: juniorgoat: most of us in here are already packed schedule wise, but asking for specific bits is always fine
[18:38:29] juniorgoat: toretore: can you make a chess game in ruby?
[18:38:45] toretore: me specifically? maybe. in general? yes.
[18:38:47] yorickpeterse: juniorgoat: I'd look into khan academy, code academy, and http://learncodethehardway.com/, as a start
[18:39:06] yorickpeterse: then look for some intern position at some local company
[18:39:10] beast: try Codewars when you are up an running
[18:39:16] juniorgoat: i've tried all of them and i have no idea why i'm struggling with programming puzzles
[18:39:40] juniorgoat: did you hear about freecodecamp.com
[18:39:40] avdi: juniorgoat: most importantly, JOIN YOUR LOCAL COMMUNITY, if there is one. Go to Ruby meetups. Or any meetups. Do not be afraid.
[18:39:46] juniorgoat: http://freecodecamp.com
[18:40:15] toretore: juniorgoat: if you're depressed then maybe your brain isn't working at 100% capacity, which makes stuff like this more difficult. that's how it's been for me
[18:40:24] jhass: juniorgoat: let's try something. Why do you want to become a programmer?
[18:40:35] juniorgoat: i love ruby for its simplicity but a lot of things i don't understand because i found out they made shorthads from c things
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[18:41:10] juniorgoat: jhass: i want to be able to create ideas that i have in my head
[18:41:14] BraddPitt: what do you mean, toretore ?
[18:41:39] juniorgoat: i feel like the ideas i have could benefit everyone, but i need to learn to code to realize my ideas
[18:41:46] toretore: BraddPitt: depression/anxiety can really destroy your brain and cognitive abilities
[18:41:53] BraddPitt: I did not know that... interesting
[18:42:29] juniorgoat: toretore: i didn't know that either... i thought i was less intelligent than the rest of my peers
[18:42:37] jhass: juniorgoat: did you start working on any yet?
[18:42:43] juniorgoat: on any what?
[18:42:49] jhass: any of your ideas
[18:42:56] juniorgoat: yes i have a business plan for one of them
[18:43:03] juniorgoat: it's 100% complete
[18:43:04] yorickpeterse: juniorgoat: if it helps, even experienced devs have no idea what they're doing 80% of the time
[18:43:07] juniorgoat: i just need to develop it
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[18:43:16] toretore: juniorgoat: that's just my personal experience though, it's different for everyone
[18:43:42] juniorgoat: well i do speak several languages fluently and i have an amazing memory, i even remember stuff from when i was a toddler
[18:43:45] jhass: juniorgoat: so, do you actually enjoy the process of programming?
[18:43:49] avdi: juniorgoat: I'm going to encourage you again to get involved in your local community. Users groups are very welcoming, and you can find opportunities for all kinds of learning and collaboration there. Most importantly, though, it's *inspiring* to be around other people who are excited to write code and to share knowledge.
[18:44:21] juniorgoat: jhass: i hate error messages and code i write that isn't working as expected, but when everything works i have a feeling of joy(which rarely happens)
[18:44:36] jhass: that sounds good and perfectly normal then
[18:44:51] avdi: juniorgoat: you just described my average day of coding
[18:45:04] jhass: juniorgoat: http://www.thatawesomeshirt.com/images/get/1284/430x550/ people print this on shirts ;)
[18:45:14] toretore: juniorgoat: it's important to be curious and to want to learn and experiement for curiosity's sake alone
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[18:46:11] avdi: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzmDP_yCEAAvXdx.png
[18:46:17] jhass: juniorgoat: I think it might be worth to start adding an additional motivating factor though. One obvious one is to actually start prototyping one of your (simpler to realize) ideas
[18:46:33] hj2007: what is the issue in this code? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/817829b644e5e9a407ee
[18:46:46] hj2007: I'm getting "(ruby):19: syntax error, unexpected $end, expecting keyword_end"
[18:46:58] juniorgoat: well i want to create an iphone app using swift i hear that swift is easy to learn and its syntax looks identical to javascript
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[18:47:03] yorickpeterse: remove the do on line 7
[18:47:13] yorickpeterse: and <<= redact is not valid
[18:47:19] yorickpeterse: use << instead
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[18:47:33] jhass: juniorgoat: don't even have the ideal of turning that first iteration into a usable product, but start working on something you convinced will solve somebody's (ideally yours) problem
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[18:47:52] toretore: <<= would be useful if << wasn't mutating
[18:48:18] juniorgoat: well i want to do my phone app, but first i want to develop the website and then have links to the app in the app store
[18:48:25] arup_r: hj2007: readacts <<= redact is the issue
[18:48:26] yorickpeterse: <<= is valid syntax?
[18:48:31] jhass: >> x = 64; x <<= 1; x
[18:48:32] ruboto: jhass # => 128 (https://eval.in/444394)
[18:48:33] yorickpeterse: >> x = []; x <<= 10
[18:48:34] ruboto: yorickpeterse # => [10] (https://eval.in/444395)
[18:48:37] hj2007: thanks yorickpeterse, toretore.
[18:48:58] toretore: haha, i didn't know that.. makes sense i guess
[18:49:01] jhass: >> x = 64; x >>= 1; x
[18:49:02] ruboto: jhass # => 32 (https://eval.in/444396)
[18:49:03] juniorgoat: then i would like to create the app for android and i would like to use ruby and postgres as part of the stack that i want to use on my app
[18:49:03] hj2007: changed <<= to <<, I get "undefined method `<<' for nil:NilClass"
[18:49:25] BraddPitt: it is mispelled
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[18:49:27] yorickpeterse: the fuck does <<= even do
[18:49:30] BraddPitt: readats and redacts
[18:49:33] jhass: yorickpeterse: see above?
[18:49:43] yorickpeterse: jhass: not entirely sure if I follow
[18:49:44] BraddPitt: change it to `redacts` on line 8
[18:49:54] jhass: yorickpeterse: Fixnum#<< doesn't mutate at all
[18:49:57] shevy: oh a typo
[18:49:59] toretore: yorickpeterse: gets translated to x = x << y i guess
[18:50:00] avdi: yorickpeterse: wouldn't it be leftshift and assign/rightshift and assign?
[18:50:12] hj2007: BraddPitt: thanks :D
[18:50:18] toretore: in the case of Array#<< it's the same
[18:50:19] yorickpeterse: as per parser, this is the AST:
[18:50:26] yorickpeterse: (op-asgn (lvasgn :x) :<< (int 10))
[18:50:28] avdi: perfectly ordinary thing to do from a C point of view
[18:50:55] avdi: so long as you are dealing with integers, that is
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[18:52:01] jhass: juniorgoat: well whatever it is, start working on it. make the most basic prototype of it you can imagine. Like make an app that has the UI you want but returns static stub answers for every button etc.
[18:52:23] juniorgoat: i'll do that
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[18:52:54] toretore: juniorgoat: i'd focus on the web part first
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[18:53:02] yorickpeterse: hmmmmm...do I write tests in Rust (blegh), or do I finally start working on my LL(1) blag
[18:53:05] yorickpeterse: or do I watch videos
[18:53:05] juniorgoat: that's my plan toretore
[18:53:29] juniorgoat: is there a point to write tests? why not just test the code after every save?
[18:53:35] juniorgoat: (without writing tests)
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[18:54:10] toretore: juniorgoat: you can skip writing tests in the beginning, and then you'll learn their value once you get sick of manually testing everything all the time
[18:54:14] yorickpeterse: good luck with that when the code is thousands of lines long
[18:54:15] jhass: yorickpeterse: we all know what will win^^
[18:54:20] yorickpeterse: jhass: videos :<
[18:54:24] yorickpeterse: watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdSD07U5uBs
[18:54:51] juniorgoat: how many hours a week do you work as a developer?
[18:55:11] yorickpeterse: that's paid hours
[18:55:20] yorickpeterse: FOSS adds on top of that
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[18:55:26] jhass: just wanted to call bullshit :P
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[18:55:48] juniorgoat: 40 is 6 hours a day right?
[18:56:02] ruboto: toretore # => 40 (https://eval.in/444398)
[18:56:11] jhass: just ask ruby \o/
[18:56:12] juniorgoat: and you say you can't do math
[18:56:20] jhass: >> 40 / 5 # rather though
[18:56:21] juniorgoat: i can't do math :/
[18:56:21] ruboto: jhass # => 8 (https://eval.in/444399)
[18:56:47] yorickpeterse: but yeah, I happen to work 40 hours paid, but do a lot of FOSS stuff on the side
[18:57:02] juniorgoat: can you do other hobbies on the side?
[18:57:10] toretore: if you work for yourself you work 90 hours and get paid for 10
[18:57:21] juniorgoat: like playing in your band and doing show
[18:57:25] yorickpeterse: with proper scheduling sure
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[18:57:44] yorickpeterse: I don't work from 09:00 until 00:00 or something like that
[18:57:58] juniorgoat: i thought it would be from 9 to 5
[18:57:59] juniorgoat: if it's 8 hours
[18:58:05] yorickpeterse: depends per company
[18:58:11] yorickpeterse: since I work from home it doesn't matter that much
[18:58:21] juniorgoat: what's the most important thing?
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[18:58:35] juniorgoat: why are you working from home instead of an office?
[18:58:44] yorickpeterse: The company I work for is purely remote based
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[18:59:13] yorickpeterse: and after working in an office for 5 years I'm glad I don't have to do that
[18:59:25] juniorgoat: do remote companies offer health insurance and other incentives?
[18:59:43] yorickpeterse: Some do I suppose, differs per company and company
[18:59:44] juniorgoat: or do they give you extra money for health insurance?
[18:59:50] yorickpeterse: here in .nl it's already covered on government level
[18:59:52] juniorgoat: oh... interesting
[19:00:08] juniorgoat: nl is netherlands?
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[19:00:58] yorickpeterse: oh god this video is really boring
[19:01:01] juniorgoat: i shouldn't be asking this, but what should someone expect to earn in the netherlands?
[19:01:12] juniorgoat: maybe i'll move to europe
[19:01:16] leitz: guilders?
[19:01:21] juniorgoat: the euro is stronger than the dollar
[19:01:29] yorickpeterse: as a dev? <= 50k USD
[19:01:30] toretore: guilders lol
[19:01:35] juniorgoat: how many though and what's the cost of living
[19:02:09] juniorgoat: that's about 40k euros
[19:02:28] juniorgoat: why do developers in us make more?
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[19:02:34] yorickpeterse: high living costs
[19:02:44] juniorgoat: what's the living cost over there?
[19:02:47] yorickpeterse: e.g. here in .nl the average rent of a decent apartment is < 1k USD
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[19:02:56] yorickpeterse: opposed to the 2-3k you'd pay in the bay area
[19:02:59] juniorgoat: yorickpeterse: what's decent?
[19:03:09] delta_: Can someone please explain the basics of how optparse works by this example: https://eval.in/444400
[19:03:19] juniorgoat: yorickpeterse: the only decent apartment i've evern seen in the bay area was 25,000 usd per month
[19:03:20] yorickpeterse: e.g. my rent is about $800
[19:03:26] BraddPitt: i envy you yorickpeterse
[19:03:31] yorickpeterse: 25k? what the fuck
[19:03:45] juniorgoat: everything else was awful
[19:03:46] yorickpeterse: it better come with a free Tesla
[19:04:09] yorickpeterse: delta_: what specifically do you want to know?
[19:04:35] avdi: Yay for living somewhere cheap and working remote
[19:04:37] juniorgoat: teslas are okay, they're great that they're electric but the interior is uncomfortable :/
[19:04:54] delta_: yorickpeterse: What's happening inside the block?
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[19:05:08] BraddPitt: avdi thats my dream
[19:05:14] BraddPitt: but my gf/friends/family are all here
[19:05:20] BraddPitt: really its only my gf that i care about
[19:05:24] yorickpeterse: delta_: OptionParser.new takes a block, which it evaluates against the instance of itself
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[19:05:49] juniorgoat: BraddPitt: are you in the us?
[19:05:51] yorickpeterse: so basically OptionParser.new { |opts| opts.x = y } is like `opts = OptionParser.new; opts.x = y`
[19:05:55] BraddPitt: im in SF, juniorgoat
[19:06:04] juniorgoat: i was there not too long ago
[19:06:06] BraddPitt: I love this city
[19:06:09] yorickpeterse: BraddPitt: how's the cleanliness? :>
[19:06:14] juniorgoat: i enjoyed it but i hate how overpriced everything is
[19:06:20] BraddPitt: It's... lacking, yorickpeterse
[19:06:22] BraddPitt: to put it nicely
[19:06:28] BraddPitt: yeah the cost of living is insane here
[19:06:31] juniorgoat: sf is very clean
[19:06:37] juniorgoat: even the ghettos don't have much trash
[19:06:39] BraddPitt: its very, very dirty
[19:06:43] BraddPitt: for a US city
[19:06:46] juniorgoat: compared to la it's very clean
[19:06:53] BraddPitt: LA is just butthole
[19:06:56] delta_: yorickpeterse: and what's opts.banner and opts.on ?
[19:06:59] BraddPitt: I lived there for 2 years and came right back to SF
[19:07:00] juniorgoat: new york is much dirtier than la
[19:07:06] yorickpeterse: IIRC the bay area has like half the amount of homeless people as all of .nl
[19:07:29] yorickpeterse: delta_: I suggest reading the documentation of OptionParser
[19:07:32] yorickpeterse: &ri OptionParser
[19:07:33] `derpy: http://www.rubydoc.info/stdlib/optparse/OptionParser
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[19:07:59] juniorgoat: BraddPitt: would it be possible to work remotely for a company and still get the 100k starting salary people ge tin the bay area?
[19:08:13] juniorgoat: like a company that's based in sf
[19:08:13] yorickpeterse: Probably not, at least not as a junior
[19:08:32] juniorgoat: http://www.hackreactor.com/
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[19:08:43] juniorgoat: they're in the bay area
[19:08:48] BraddPitt: yes juniorgoat
[19:08:58] juniorgoat: what is the secret?
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[19:09:50] juniorgoat: how can you tell if a company doesn't care about a college degree?
[19:10:15] toretore: they have a cool website with parallax and infinite scrolling
[19:10:26] pangur: Using Sinatra and Sequel, I am trying to search an object by its label, and when it is found, find out what its id is.
[19:10:28] juniorgoat: what does that have to do with anything?
[19:10:42] pangur: search for an object is what I meant to say.
[19:10:42] toretore: i'm joking juniorgoat
[19:10:52] juniorgoat: but i'm being serious:/
[19:10:59] pangur: toretore: you were helping me last night with this.
[19:11:08] juniorgoat: i'm unemployed and a loser right now... i don't want to be either
[19:11:10] pangur: I am still struggling with it.
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[19:11:14] toretore: you won't know until you ask juniorgoat
[19:11:23] toretore: pangur: gist your code
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[19:11:51] avdi: juniorgoat: read their job adverts.
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[19:12:18] juniorgoat: the job advertisement will mention a degree right?
[19:12:53] avdi: juniorgoat: or not.
[19:12:59] juniorgoat: toretore: can you complete the advanced portion of the algorithms in this course using ruby or whatever language you're comfortable is? http://freecodecamp.com/map
[19:13:09] juniorgoat: okay, i will try to apply
[19:13:16] juniorgoat: thanks a lot for all your help everyone
[19:13:23] avdi: pontiki: oh slash to you as well!
[19:13:32] juniorgoat: i'll stay away from that bootcamp
[19:14:05] avdi: juniorgoat: best of luck to you! And don't forget to get involved with your local community!
[19:14:08] toretore: juniorgoat: not all of them, at least without having to learn something new
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[19:14:29] toretore: juniorgoat: but you always have to learn something new in this profession
[19:15:20] juniorgoat: i love learning new things, ideally i want to run my own business but i don't know if i could be proficient enough to do that without knowing every aspect of my business (and having an mba)
[19:15:37] juniorgoat: i just don't understand why i was suicidal and failed college
[19:16:02] BraddPitt: I was deeply depressed and dropped out of college juniorgoat
[19:16:10] BraddPitt: I honestly think it is normal
[19:16:11] juniorgoat: literally 5 years of my life are wasted
[19:16:19] juniorgoat: 5 years is a long time :(
[19:16:21] avdi: juniorgoat: FWIW, I run my own business and I don't have an MBA. It's like programming. You figure out what you need as you need to. Kinda like life in general, actually.
[19:16:24] yorickpeterse: depression does many funny things
[19:16:29] BraddPitt: indeed it does
[19:16:36] toretore: s/funny/shitty/
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[19:17:02] juniorgoat: i wish time macines existed
[19:17:06] yorickpeterse: ACTION doesn't have any formal degree either
[19:17:14] yorickpeterse: besides a masters degree in cat herding
[19:17:23] pontiki: cat master
[19:17:46] toretore: cat: master: No such file or directory
[19:17:47] avdi: juniorgoat: I spent 9 years at a company that discarded my work and wouldn't promote me without a piece of paper. Now I speak at conferences around the world. It's never too late. Especially in this profession.
[19:17:53] yorickpeterse: toretore: huehue
[19:18:01] BraddPitt: avdi where do you live, if you dont mind me asking?
[19:18:20] avdi: BraddPitt: Tennessee, now
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[19:18:34] BraddPitt: do you do ruby dev professionally?
[19:19:08] avdi: BraddPitt: I did for years. Now I do training professionally.
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[19:20:10] pontiki: *sigh* juniorgoat, i wish i had answers for you that would help. you've probably heard all the advice.
[19:20:25] pontiki: juniorgoat: you're not alone, but i don't know if that even helps.
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[19:21:00] pontiki: juniorgoat: every day is a struggle; i somehow make it. in case it does in any way help, i try to make something every day.
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[19:21:39] yorickpeterse: looking at cat pictures might help
[19:21:42] yorickpeterse: works for me at least
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[19:21:52] yorickpeterse: a cat picture a day keeps the bad mood away
[19:21:59] avdi: depression sucks. I basically just try my best to structure my life in a way that it's resilient in the face of weeks where I fall apart. Like, say, last week.
[19:22:10] arup_r: avdi: I like your voice while watching RubyTapas
[19:22:21] yorickpeterse: channel suddenly turned creepy
[19:22:21] avdi: arup_r: thank you!
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[19:22:43] pontiki: hahaha, that's why i signed up almost instantly
[19:22:54] pontiki: (i love all the advice, too)
[19:23:06] avdi: yorickpeterse: I guess I'm used to it, doesn't creep me out :-)
[19:23:10] arup_r: Nice screencasts ... and your voice made it complete..
[19:23:47] pontiki: hmmm. well. hmm...
[19:24:03] avdi: I've heard from subscribers whose non-coding significant others want them to turn on RubyTapas so they have something to go to sleep to :-)
[19:24:06] yorickpeterse: avdi: also you totally missed out on my rubyrogues episode
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[19:24:22] yorickpeterse: "oooh you should talk about parsing" *doesn't show up* :P
[19:24:33] pangur: toretore: I think that I will need to sit on this for a while longer to be able to articulate what it is that I want to do.
[19:24:51] pangur: I will ask you again in a few days time, if that is OK ?
[19:24:51] avdi: yorickpeterse: I missed a LOT recently. I've been traveling, sick, and depressed either in that order or all at once. I wish I hadn't missed it, though :-/
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[19:25:57] arup_r: avdi: Your introduction always .. something new.. Hey I am Avdi... ( some new things )
[19:26:00] toretore: pangur: sure
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[19:26:19] arup_r: I liked it........ miss you too :(
[19:26:21] avdi: yorickpeterse: I was really looking forward to that episode too :-(
[19:27:27] yorickpeterse: ah well, soon I'll have a blog post about more of that stuff
[19:27:32] yorickpeterse: if I can get myself to write it at least
[19:27:38] pangur: Thanks, toretore.
[19:29:17] pangur: ACTION is 62, loves learning to code.
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[19:30:22] yorickpeterse: I think that's one of the most interesting things about programming, there's a shit ton of different people
[19:30:55] pangur: Happily, as nobody relies on me to do anything very useful with it, I can take as long as I like to work something out :)
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[19:31:34] pangur: Often, once I have worked out how something works, my interest in it fades somewhat.
[19:31:58] avdi: pangur: same here. Solved problems are so dull.
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[19:32:26] pangur: When you get to my age, avdi, you wish you had written down the solutions :)
[19:32:57] pangur: It is like having to read a detective story again to remember who committed the crime.
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[19:33:31] avdi: I keep more and more notes as time goes by
[19:34:16] pangur: Good idea.
[19:34:53] avdi: every idea goes straight into evernote these days, wherever I am
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[19:40:32] jhass: I love workflowy
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[19:52:55] weaksauce: jhass is workflowy free?
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[19:53:29] jhass: limited usage, but enough for me, yeah
[19:53:47] jhass: that is the amount of items you can create per month is limited unless you pay
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[19:54:10] weaksauce: looks pretty slick
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[19:54:27] jhass: it works extremely well for how my thoughts are organized
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[19:54:44] shevy: chaos prevails
[19:54:53] weaksauce: a trick I use for local notes is to have a "man" command with tab completion.
[19:55:14] shevy: hey... man-commands
[19:55:19] shevy: does ruboto object to that?
[19:55:42] weaksauce: works well for notes on things basically just opens up vim
[19:56:30] jhass: the thing that makes the difference to me is that I can always attach subitems to something without planning for that or reformatting anything
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[19:57:10] weaksauce: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/cc8a5857fdab3fe56bdd
[19:57:17] weaksauce: if anyone is interested in it
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[19:58:03] weaksauce: yeah I do like that. org mode is one that is pretty nice for lists like that. seems like workflowy is slicker though
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[19:58:44] pangur: get '/district/:id' do; @district = District.where(params[:id]=>:id) will fetch the district with the correct id. However, my table has two fields(id, label). Instead of doing get '/district/:id', I want to do get /district/:label', and return the id of that instance, toretore. Does that make more sense than what I was saying last night?
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[19:59:39] weaksauce: pangur flip flop things around?
[19:59:56] toretore: pangur: yes. it should not be difficult if you understand the tools you're using
[20:00:02] jhass: yeah I guess it's orgmode without the keyboard or syntax overhead
[20:00:37] toretore: pangur: your sinatra "action" will return whatever the block returns
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[20:00:42] pangur: If I fetch the correct district, how do I find out its id?
[20:00:58] toretore: that depends. what is @district?
[20:01:35] pangur: At the moment it is the district whose label is :label.
[20:01:46] toretore: no, i mean what type is it?
[20:02:04] pangur: I have a table districts, and a class District.
[20:02:05] toretore: a District? ok, so what is a District? where does it come from?
[20:02:29] toretore: does it have a superclass? what library provides this functionality?
[20:02:31] pangur: each instance of District is a row in districts.
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[20:03:15] toretore: i'm trying to teach you how to figure things like this out on your own, because it's something you will have to do all the time
[20:03:21] pangur: class District<Sequel::Model
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[20:03:45] pangur: So, Sequel::Model is the parent class of District
[20:03:52] toretore: ok, so then find the documentation for this class
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[20:04:10] toretore: it will have a method for getting the value of a field
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[20:07:41] pangur: Most of what I am seeing is based on :id being the primary key: like artist = Artist[1] or artist = Artist.with_pk!(1)
[20:08:04] toretore: "id" is a field like any other
[20:08:31] pangur: As there is only one record that is returned by my query, I suppose .first will be it.
[20:09:21] pangur: I see artist = Artist.first(:name => 'YJM') which might be what I am after.
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[20:10:04] pangur: District.first(:label => :label) maybe.
[20:10:22] weaksauce: pangur if it's not unique a where clause may return more than one record.
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[20:11:02] pangur: It is unique though, as I have 36 districts, each with a unique label.
[20:11:22] toretore: you can use .first in that case
[20:12:09] weaksauce: in general a where clause will return some form of collection of items or some representation of empty.
[20:12:12] toretore: the rdoc for Sequel::Model isn't terribly obvious if you don't know what to look for, but what you're looking for will be here: http://www.rubydoc.info/gems/sequel/Sequel/Model/InstanceMethods
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[20:14:00] pangur: I have just tried get '/district/:label' do
[20:14:00] pangur: @district = District.first(params[:label]=>:label) and that worked. However, I still have no idea how to obtain the id of that instance.
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[20:14:56] toretore: look at the link i posted above pangur
[20:15:01] toretore: it's in there
[20:15:37] pangur: #id -> Object
[20:15:49] pangur: Is that the bit that I need?
[20:16:11] toretore: you have a field/column, "id", and you want to get its value
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[20:16:56] weaksauce: do you know how to get the label of that record?
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[20:18:17] pangur: d = @district; puts #{d.title} #{d.forenames} #{d.surname}
[20:18:34] pangur: oops, sorry.
[20:18:48] pangur: d = @district; puts #{d.label}
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[20:19:37] pangur: ah, thanks.
[20:19:40] weaksauce: have you tried d.id ?
[20:19:51] pangur: Have just done :)
[20:19:52] toretore: "label" is a field. you get its value with `d.label`. "id" is a field. you get its value with ?
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[20:20:37] pangur: Thanks, toretore :)
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[20:35:17] goldfish6744: okay, anyone has the time and patience to explain object-oriented to me, in PM? I still don't get the very basic ideas. Nope, I'm not trolling, regardless of what shevy says.
[20:35:54] shevy: you no longer use webchat right?
[20:36:08] goldfish6744: right, I was requested not to
[20:36:55] shevy: one of my favourite definitions of OOP is the one Alan Kay used
[20:37:49] shevy: this is somewhat an acceptable summary: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AlanKaysDefinitionOfObjectOriented not the first entry "1. EverythingIsAnObject"
[20:38:23] avdi: For my money the only definition that matters is cited at the bottom of that page: "OOP to me means only messaging, local retention and protection and hiding of state-process, and extreme LateBinding of all things."
[20:38:48] avdi: I actually just wrote a RubyTapas episode based on that quote (but also drawing in some of the other history around it)
[20:39:20] shevy: tapas... is that the mexican food?
[20:39:29] goldfish6744: that's very nice; but the words mean nothing in particular to me
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[20:40:33] avdi: goldfish6744: yeah, unfortunately it's a concept which was very much coined in conversation with *previous* software paradigms, so most of the descriptions are aimed at explaining how it differs from, say, procedural programming.
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[20:41:27] goldfish6744: well, I think they call Fortran an imperative programming language
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[20:41:50] avdi: goldfish6744: what's your level of programming knowledge?
[20:42:41] goldfish6744: I'm reasonably good with Fortran and Basic. Never managed to understand anything which was supposed to run with a GUI.
[20:42:55] goldfish6744: much earlier, programmed in Clarion 3
[20:43:08] goldfish6744: and for half a year, in Cobol
[20:44:51] Total_noob: ACTION looks at goldfish6744
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[20:45:18] shevy: class Cat; end <-- this makes cats
[20:45:29] avdi: goldfish6744: well, the central insight of OOP was to structure programs as cells or tiny computers sending messages to each other. And to construct those cells from smaller cells, and so on.
[20:45:58] Total_noob: shevy: I hammered him for using webchat :D
[20:46:04] Total_noob: It worked :P
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[20:46:35] shevy: your nicks are weird... goldfish ... total_noob ...
[20:46:35] Total_noob: goldfish6744: The whole point is... the objects behave like... real life objects.
[20:47:00] Total_noob: Yeah I know. Got any better for me, shevy? :D
[20:47:09] goldfish6744: as in... a one behaves like a... no, wait, there is no real life one, it's an abstraction
[20:47:14] shevy: goldfish6744 you are the goldfish; class Goldfish; end; you may originate from a Fish... class Fish; end; ... you can subclass from fish: class Goldfish < Fish; end
[20:47:53] shevy: you live in a pond... class Pond; end
[20:48:05] avdi: well, they behave like real life *mental objects*. Objects aren't supposed to be models of physical things. This is a common misconception that muddies up a lot of common pedagogy around OOP.
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[20:48:29] shevy: now you can do useful stuff in a pond, like swim around in it; for this you need the swim method; class Goldfish; def swim; puts 'The goldfish swims around in his pond happily.'; end; end
[20:49:06] goldfish6744: okay. So if I say... fish + fish, then I will find for the value of pond = 2*fish
[20:49:27] goldfish6744: but how will the program know that that's what I'll want it to do?
[20:49:27] shevy: you mean the inventory of the pond?
[20:49:37] goldfish6744: well, something like that, yes
[20:49:40] pry: He shuld just read the Why's guide.
[20:49:45] shevy: yeah, if you put the fish inside the pond
[20:50:02] shevy: and you need a method that will tell you the inventory, for instance: class Pond; def inventory?; @inventory; end; end
[20:50:38] banister: pry interesting, why the name 'pry' ?
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[20:50:57] shevy: goldfish6744 have you played old-school MUDs? the non-graphical ones? some like LP-Muds are based around the object-philosophy... you usually have class Weapon, then subclass class Sword etc.., every actor (player) has an inventory with stuff inside, weapons can be wielded, armours be worn etc...
[20:50:58] pry: Because the almighty intepreter binding :P
[20:51:03] banister: pry heh cute :)
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[20:51:32] pry: ACTION winks ;)
[20:51:34] phreakocious: a pond might have attributes/characteristics (properties) like salinity and pH and depth
[20:51:44] goldfish6744: shevy, nope. Had no internet back then
[20:52:09] pry: goldfish6744: Go play nethack
[20:52:22] goldfish6744: ^^ does that help?
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[20:52:39] pry: I am you, I do not decide if it helps.
[20:52:44] pry: Erm.. I am not you.
[20:53:16] shevy: goldfish6744 right but you can understand what they do... it's similar to the modern GUI based ones... though the modern ones tend to suck. but they all are objects right? and 3D models may have additional surface areas, textures etc...
[20:54:14] goldfish6744: weeell, they are values, stored in the respective arrays or whatever else the programmer decided to use to represent them
[20:54:17] avdi: goldfish6744: if you are interested in both OOP and Ruby, I would highly recommend reading this book: http://www.poodr.com/
[20:54:35] shevy: goldfish6744 right, if you go to the nitty gritty core
[20:54:57] shevy: goldfish6744 but objects have behaviour too and you can model them based on that behaviour
[20:55:05] phreakocious: goldfish6744: but it's not necessary to refer to them in that way...
[20:55:20] phreakocious: using objects makes things more expressive..
[20:55:26] goldfish6744: well, that "behaviour" bit is perhaps one of the things I don't quite get
[20:55:34] goldfish6744: a value doesn't behave. It just is.
[20:55:44] shevy: but you do things with a value too
[20:56:18] shevy: I don't actually remember basic much at all... did it have functions?
[20:56:28] goldfish6744: that's like saying the door opened on its own when you went there and opened it. You acted on the door, but you blame the entire opening only on the door and say that it was its behavior.
[20:56:31] toretore: goldfish6744: an object is data that is encapsulated; it then responds to messages like "give me the first item"
[20:56:46] avdi: goldfish6744: I'm also available via PM to answer questions. I've spent most of my career studying OOP in various languages.
[20:56:51] toretore: >> array = [1,2,3]; array.first
[20:56:52] ruboto: toretore # => 1 (https://eval.in/444410)
[20:57:01] shevy: goldfish6744 but the door has two states, open and closed, and you can toggle these states, unless the door is broken
[20:57:26] toretore: "array" is an object; it respons to "first" and returns another object, 1
[20:57:27] shevy: and even if you keep things in values alone, you still need to use two different values to differ between two different states
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[20:57:50] goldfish6744: sure, shevy, generally logical values
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[20:58:00] toretore: goldfish6744: in oop, data doesn't really exist on its own
[20:58:19] toretore: it is only accessible through an object which encapsulates it
[20:58:55] toretore: and then provides behavior for that data
[20:58:57] goldfish6744: ... you got me lost there. What does encapsulate mean?
[20:59:00] avdi: ideally in OOP, data doesn't exist.
[20:59:27] toretore: goldfish6744: it means "put/hide inside an object"
[20:59:36] goldfish6744: but why would I wanna do that?
[20:59:51] toretore: a lot of reasons that you shouldn't worry about at this point
[21:00:10] toretore: first you just need to understand *what*, then you can move on to *why*
[21:00:29] goldfish6744: so okay, instead of being able to act on things as I want, I'm trying to obsecure it from myself so that I cannot act on it as directly or easily.
[21:00:46] shevy: yes it is one extra layer compared to your raw values
[21:01:01] shevy: so now explain why machinecode is not used by every programmer on a daily base
[21:01:18] goldfish6744: difficult to read
[21:01:49] goldfish6744: and on occasions hard to remember how a given opcode would set/clear flags
[21:02:11] Total_noob: ACTION for the sake of being traceable even.
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[21:03:05] avdi: goldfish6744: I suspect, given your pre-existing knowledge, you'd find this an enlightening read. It explains where these ideas come from, and why they exist. http://worrydream.com/EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk/
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[21:03:35] goldfish6744: okay, gonna go in there.
[21:03:49] avdi: it's long, but very worth it.
[21:04:06] shevy: goldfish6744 and afterwards, if you have time, watch old Alan Kay lectures! like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKg1hTOQXoY
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[21:08:47] mbff: How does one handle not committing compiled css/js/images to a git repo, but using a git based deployment tool?
[21:08:55] leitz: is there a way to make a "case var when > 6:"
[21:09:19] leitz: SO far it chokes on the '> 6'. Ranges are good, though.
[21:09:25] avdi: leitz: when ->(v) {v > 6} then ...
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[21:09:37] shevy: let me check if that works
[21:09:54] avdi: I mean it's butt ugly, but procs alias #=== to #call
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[21:10:46] shevy: this works indeed
[21:10:52] shevy: and you are right, that is indeed ugly
[21:11:25] avdi: course there's also case; when v < 6; ...; end
[21:11:34] leitz: Not working for me. https://github.com/LeamHall/CT_Character_Generator/blob/merge_blue_dragons/bin/dragons_to_soldiers.rb#L44-L48
[21:11:59] shevy: and where is the case
[21:12:07] leitz: Sorry old cut. https://github.com/LeamHall/CT_Character_Generator/blob/merge_blue_dragons/bin/dragons_to_soldiers.rb#L94
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[21:12:20] avdi: leitz: yes, that line will not work
[21:12:25] shevy: well try the -> variant
[21:12:27] avdi: leitz: the code I typed above will work
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[21:12:58] shevy: btw leitz
[21:13:04] shevy: you could use "else" there
[21:13:15] avdi: shevy: good point
[21:13:17] shevy: if you can ensure that decoration_roll will have higher values
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[21:13:24] shevy: which you can, before you reach the case
[21:13:27] leitz: Else won't work, because it picks up less than 1.
[21:13:52] shevy: do you act on negative values?
[21:14:01] shevy: because if not you could intercept it before it reaches case
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[21:14:39] avdi: leitz: another option: case 6..Float::Infinity
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[21:14:53] shevy: to infinity and beyond!
[21:15:05] avdi: and yes, the fact that Ruby's only Infinity is Float::Infinity is dumb and weird, but there it is.
[21:15:13] leitz: No action on <=0
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[21:15:49] shevy: like if you can ensure: "I have either 0, or higher than 0, but never lower than 0 in my case/when structure"
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[21:16:29] avdi: leitz: the issue is that every when clause must have an *object* to which to send the === message in order to perform the match. 4..5 constructs a Range object. `> 5` doesn't construct any object, it's just incomplete syntax.
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[21:17:29] leitz: avdi, makes sense. when decoration_roll > 5: works
[21:17:49] avdi: leitz: yeah but it's probably not doing what you think
[21:17:50] leitz: I was just thinking the > 5 was the same as the 1..3 range.
[21:17:58] shevy: yeah... to Infinity :)
[21:18:22] avdi: leitz: the when clause is going to match its argument against the actual value
[21:18:28] avdi: leitz: so what you are saying there is:
[21:18:33] leitz: The decoration roll is normally ints between 2-12 inclusive.
[21:18:46] avdi: leitz: (decoration_roll) === (decoration_role > 5)
[21:19:00] avdi: leitz: so if decoration_roll is, say, 3
[21:19:11] avdi: leitz: you're saying (decoration_roll) === (false)
[21:19:33] avdi: leitz: or rather, (3) === (false)
[21:19:52] avdi: leitz: which compiles, and maybe even runs, but doesn't make a lot of sense
[21:20:22] avdi: leitz: actually I got the order of arguments backwards in all of those
[21:20:28] avdi: but the same point holds
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[21:22:25] shevy: leitz perhaps consider using more smaller methods too
[21:22:26] avdi: leitz: so since (true === 6) will never evaluate to true, that branch will never be taken
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[21:23:17] manveru: sorry... what language are we discussing here?
[21:23:39] ariedler: hey; getting slightly confused with SSL sockets; and buffering ; how do you use the buffering mixin
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[21:23:55] shevy: <avdi> leitz: when ->(v) {v > 6} then ... <--- we are no longer sure what language it is manveru :)
[21:24:09] shevy: it's beginning to look like haskell
[21:24:52] ariedler: its a cool lambda expression that returns true/false clearly
[21:25:52] leitz: avdi, you're right, a 7 isn't returing the right value.
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[21:27:10] leitz: So far I haven't figured out how to translate your line to what I was doing, since none of the other ranges use the same syntax.
[21:27:50] manveru: so... what's wrong with using if in this case?
[21:28:24] manveru: hell, even 'else' would do
[21:28:30] avdi: leitz: you just replace your `> 5` with either ->(v) { v > 5 } or 6..Float::Infinity
[21:28:42] avdi: manveru: we've already discussed why else is out
[21:29:00] leitz: manveru, mostly I'm learning Ruby, and trying to use the case statement.
[21:29:21] avdi: leitz: well, it also makes a lot of sense for what you're doing with ranges.
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[21:31:08] leitz: avdi, this may be a time for a public service announcement. I'm using Ruby 1.8.7, and "when ->(v) {v > 5}:" doesn't seem to work.
[21:31:35] avdi: leitz: FWIW, I'd probably use the 6..Float::Infinity version in my own code
[21:31:39] avdi: leitz: well no, it wouldn't
[21:31:41] leitz: The greater than is useful if there are modifiers that would put the roll outside the "standard" range.
[21:31:53] avdi: leitz: do you have an option to NOT use 1.8.7?
[21:32:06] avdi: leitz: Float::Infinity won't work in 1.8.7 either
[21:32:06] manveru: i mean, it's not 2007 anymore
[21:32:26] avdi: leitz: in 1.8.7 you have to divide 0/0 to get an infinity value, IIRC
[21:32:27] baweaver: that, and even 1.9.x is getting end-of-life'd
[21:32:28] leitz: avdi, not really. I work on servers, and I'm trying to stay with what's available at work. Thus, 1.8.7.
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[21:32:55] avdi: leitz: see what baweaver said... a server with only 1.8.7 is a rare beast these days, I'd think.
[21:33:07] baweaver: RHEL or CentOS would
[21:33:10] baweaver: on older versions
[21:33:21] baweaver: which also need to be upgraded :P
[21:33:36] leitz: There's more 1.8.7 than 2.0 in production, I bet.
[21:33:39] manveru: even then, at least you can use rvm anywhere
[21:33:49] shevy: leitz you can just hard-code the maximum value possible there
[21:33:56] shevy: or use 1_000_000_000 :D
[21:34:00] avdi: leitz: FWIW, the 1.8.7 equivalent of my lambda version is proc{|v| v > 5}
[21:34:47] miah: there is no reason you _have_ to use the packaged version of ruby included with redhat/centos/debian
[21:34:58] baweaver: 1.8.7>> puts 'test'
[21:35:04] baweaver: 1.8>> puts 'test'
[21:35:08] leitz: shevy, yeah. But I'm happy to use a Rubyism if possible.
[21:35:16] leitz: DOes Float require a library?
[21:35:17] baweaver: drat. Ox0dea would know the magic there
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[21:35:53] baweaver: probably not a good idea to have that out of date of packages on your servers
[21:36:00] baweaver: presents a whole new realm of security risks
[21:36:31] avdi: leitz: or do INFINITY=0/0 somewhere, I guess
[21:36:38] avdi: leitz: whoops
[21:36:56] avdi: leitz: INFINITY=1.0/0.0
[21:37:17] avdi: leitz: then you should be able to do 6..INFINITY
[21:38:07] avdi: but make sure you also do ANDBEYOND = INFINITY + 1
[21:38:17] miah: baweaver: ya, it depends on if you lean heavily on 'redhat supports us' when dealing with auditors etc.
[21:38:24] baweaver: !mute fried_chicken
[21:38:24] leitz: Hmm...at that point compaing vs <=0 and using else becomes cleaner.
[21:38:24] ruboto: +q fried_chicken!*@*
[21:38:24] ruboto: -o ruboto
[21:38:28] baweaver: yeah, fair....
[21:38:37] baweaver: (some racist joined other channels, pre-empting it)
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[21:39:31] baweaver: heh, can't even install 1.8.7 on my mac, it throws a fit.
[21:39:45] leitz: Or just use a largish number in the range.
[21:40:20] avdi: buzz = 0.upto(INFINITY && BEYOND)
[21:40:26] miah: baweaver: i think thats because of gcc/llvm
[21:40:37] baweaver: I didn't read into it too much.
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[21:42:06] baweaver: Proc.new { |x| x > 5 }
[21:42:40] baweaver: avdi: BEYOND = -INFINITY
[21:42:41] avdi: baweaver: did I miss something? Does proc{|x| x > 5} not work?
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[21:42:54] baweaver: that's what I was finding, still searching for the other syntax.
[21:43:16] baweaver: pretty sure that works too, but didn't find it in a fast browse
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[21:43:55] avdi: baweaver: we had to make do with a lot of proc{} in the bad old pre 1.9 days ;-)
[21:44:40] baweaver: yeah, I jumped the train at 1.9.3
[21:44:48] avdi: also for some reason we were barefoot
[21:45:02] baweaver: HR takes issue with that here.
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[21:45:21] avdi: I seem to be perpetually stuck with a part of my head that thinks "oh, 1.8, that's the new shit"
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[21:45:55] miah: even mruby is 1.9 compat =)
[21:45:56] avdi: but I can't actually remember what changed between 1.6 and 1.8 anymore
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[21:46:21] baweaver: I know reduce still uses some 1.8.x syntax.
[21:46:22] miah: i only had to deal with 1.8.7 for a short time, and i was mostly using it with chef/rails.
[21:46:51] baweaver: REE was it?
[21:47:01] miah: we used REE for a moment with rails
[21:47:07] baweaver: So I did use 1.8.7 then :D
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[21:51:06] leitz: Well, now othe rmath is off. Or I'm just getting bleary eyed.
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[21:53:26] leitz: Ah, found it, I thnk.
[21:55:39] shevy: one day you will join us in the ruby 2.x era
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[21:56:19] juniorgoat: is there a difference between virtual os x and actual os x running on a macbook?
[21:56:36] baweaver: one's virtual
[21:56:42] juniorgoat: but besides that fact
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[21:56:51] juniorgoat: is it all the same?
[21:57:08] avdi: what's virtual os x?
[21:57:11] juniorgoat: can i work with others in my virtual os x yosemite the same as other developers using macs?
[21:57:13] baweaver: you might find some small discrepancies but I rarely have issues with virtualization
[21:57:30] baweaver: though this quickly ventures into illegal
[21:57:56] juniorgoat: just because it's against tos doesn't mean it's not right to do
[21:58:02] baweaver: as OSX does not provide images
[21:58:25] avdi: I didn't realize anyone was doing this. Last time I looked into it (years ago) it was darn near impossible.
[21:58:37] baweaver: That's kinda what a TOS is, and I would highly not suggest asking about illegal virtualization
[21:58:49] baweaver: instead, consider debian
[21:59:32] juniorgoat: well i have to use it because everyone else is using os x and i spent 2k on my windows laptop
[21:59:52] avdi: juniorgoat: no you don't
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[21:59:53] juniorgoat: i can't afford another laptop, not yet at least
[22:00:25] adaedra: juniorgoat: the only limitiation is if you're working in an environment doing iOS or Swift/Obj-C OS X dev.
[22:00:34] adaedra: Otherwise, another system may behave just as well
[22:00:55] baweaver: either way, we're not here to help you with illegal activities
[22:01:05] baweaver: besides, this is the #ruby channel
[22:01:09] avdi: juniorgoat: if you're starting out learning Ruby you can do that just fine on Windows. That's where I learned. Beyond that, I've been doing Ruby dev on linux for quite a while, and I know plenty others who do
[22:01:30] baweaver: chances are that your prod env is linux
[22:01:46] baweaver: so it's almost better to develop in as close to your prod env as possible
[22:02:01] baweaver: which is why Vagrant is so popular for some things.
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[22:02:49] avdi: anecdotally, these days I'm seeing more devs going OS X -> Linux than vice versa. Not in droves, but it seems to be happening.
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[22:04:31] baweaver: avdi: for my case at least I'll likely stick with Mac
[22:04:37] baweaver: Designer as well, so Photoshop
[22:04:50] adaedra: I switch between mac and linux
[22:05:03] avdi: yeah, I think the vast majority are sticking with what they like
[22:05:06] adaedra: depending on the moment and the tasks
[22:05:26] adaedra: That's what you should be doing. Stick with what you like.
[22:05:33] avdi: it's just that years ago, I noted that there were some linux users moving to mac, and now if there's any movement at all it seems more often the other direction.
[22:05:37] juniorgoat: i'm doing ruby and rails development as well as app development which requires xcodd
[22:05:55] adaedra: Well, you're out of luck for xCode
[22:06:44] avdi: juniorgoat: from your comments earlier it sounded like you're just getting started. That's an awful lot to take on at once.
[22:07:04] juniorgoat: i am just getting started
[22:07:11] juniorgoat: here's a screenshot
[22:07:25] juniorgoat: os x just installed and i'
[22:07:36] adaedra: Ruby on Rails development is okay under Windows and great under Linux, you don't *require* an OS X
[22:07:59] avdi: well, my advice would be as a beginner, first make an effort to learn *one* language reasonably well
[22:08:28] juniorgoat: i'm having problems already http://imgur.com/PpN2sEm
[22:08:29] baweaver: and also don't discuss things you know are illegal on IRC
[22:08:31] avdi: and if you pick Ruby, you can do that right on your windows box. No mac or linux required.
[22:08:44] juniorgoat: what is reasonably well?
[22:09:14] avdi: juniorgoat: don't overcomplicate your life with stuff like dodgy virtualized environments.
[22:09:34] juniorgoat: what if it's the only thing you have going for you at the moment?
[22:09:35] avdi: juniorgoat: I've helped a LOT of beginners, and I've seen too many fall into the trap of thinking they need to learn/do ALL THE THINGS at once
[22:09:50] juniorgoat: i just need to learn how to develop apps and websites
[22:09:56] avdi: juniorgoat: pick one
[22:10:03] baweaver: that and will screw you
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[22:10:36] juniorgoat: aren't web apps just like phone apps but hosted on a server?
[22:10:45] avdi: juniorgoat: no. not even a little bit.
[22:11:01] juniorgoat: what's the main difference then?
[22:11:13] juniorgoat: besides hardware restrictions that both have to heed ot
[22:11:30] avdi: juniorgoat: with where you're at, a discussion of the many differences wouldn't really matter or make a difference
[22:11:53] juniorgoat: so why not learn both?
[22:12:08] adaedra: Well, there's one way to find out, juniorgoat, to learn. But go it step by step, i.e. begin by looking at web development, then, once you're comfortable with it, move to something else.
[22:12:11] baweaver: learn one thing well
[22:12:18] baweaver: or learn multiple badly
[22:12:26] juniorgoat: later everyone
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[22:14:09] C0L0R: Hi everyone, could someone tell me how to access the data inside this json object? I tried to access it like a hash but that did not work. Here is the variable dump: http://pastie.org/private/h6zuwimzzmpydfbaf6td5a
[22:14:29] baweaver: C0L0R: it's not good to cross post from rails
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[22:14:37] tmillc: I really like the rubykoans approach to programming tutorials. editing a lesson and having irb/pry open to fiddle with similar topics until they're really settled, is a wonderful way to learn.
[22:14:47] C0L0R: Okay, I'm sorry
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[22:16:14] baweaver: Did you not get an answer there?
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[22:16:37] C0L0R: I did not
[22:17:06] baweaver: give me a sec to hop over, I was paying more attention to this channel
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[22:17:32] C0L0R: Thank you baweaver!
[22:17:37] avdi: I like to tenderize my JSON with a crab mallet first, makes it easier to get at the good bits
[22:18:53] baweaver: avdi: new gem name?
[22:19:11] avdi: baweaver: haha, you can have it :-)
[22:19:27] baweaver: I have enough gems so far :P
[22:20:37] avdi: "reference to that one thing Avdi said in IRC" would be a new low for gem name obscurity
[22:21:04] baweaver: I think we could go lower with inspired by puns from tenderlove on Twitter
[22:21:24] baweaver: aw, he left just before that :(
[22:21:32] baweaver: ACTION likes the puns though
[22:22:47] baweaver: then again mine are far worse
[22:22:50] baweaver: right shevy?
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[22:26:46] shevy: I can't think for dam right now
[22:27:18] baweaver: (context: baweaver -> beaver)
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[22:27:34] shevy: my late father always made jokes that nobody else found amusing but he giggled about his own jokes like crazy, and then others would find this funny because a happy mood is kinda infectious
[22:27:39] baweaver: though it's actually B.A. Weaver
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[22:42:31] shevy: plus your alt is lemur so you have a thing going for animals regardless
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[23:05:53] dorei: is there a less crappy alternative to activeresource ?
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[23:35:12] Ox0dea: 18>> puts 'No dots.' # baweaver
[23:35:13] ruboto: Ox0dea # => No dots. ...check link for more (https://eval.in/444438)
[23:35:21] Ox0dea: And no 0.49 support. :(
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[23:44:15] baweaver: ah, that'd do it
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[23:45:23] Ox0dea: How to tell DelegateClass not to delegate certain methods?
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[23:45:59] Ox0dea: I suppose I could just define #inspect for my thing, but it's confusing that it becomes the delegated class's by default.
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[23:47:05] Ox0dea: https://eval.in/444439
[23:48:07] Ox0dea: On a related note, I found a segfault on trunk: https://eval.in/444440
[23:48:26] Ox0dea: ACTION has a sick fascination with tracking down NULL dereferences.
[23:49:13] Ox0dea: #__send__ is apparently duper-special, so this'll be good: https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/trunk/vm_eval.c#L2164
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[23:59:14] sp3: 23:48 * Ox0dea has a sick fascination with tracking down NULL dereferences.
[23:59:28] sp3: mmap_min_addr must have been a party.
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