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#ruby - 10 March 2016

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[00:24:47] evenix: how come http.request doesn't handle gzip right off the back? https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/v1_9_3_327/lib/net/http.rb#L1031
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[00:26:44] evenix: sorry wrong link here https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/ruby_2_2/lib/net/http.rb
[00:26:53] evenix: i'm using jruby 9.0.5.0 ruby 2.2.3
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[00:49:17] Jon30: is anyone else having issues with google drive api today? I am using google_drive and google-api-client gems to authenticate and write to google drive's spreadsheet files... everything was working fine for a year and suddenly 40 minutes ago both of my apps are getting: "Unauthorized client or scope in request"
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[00:56:47] Kim^J: Is asking Rails questions OK or is there a more suitable channel?
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[01:01:19] havenwood: Kim^J: The best place is the #rubyonrails channel, it's most on-topic there. They do require nick registration (if you have trouble talking).
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[01:02:16] Kim^J: havenwood: Ah, I tried #rails, which didn't work. Thanks! I actually solved my issue... It was a Mac space that made the parser go nuts. :/
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[01:28:41] Jon30: is anyone else having issues with google drive api today? I am using google_drive and google-api-client gems to authenticate and write to google drive's spreadsheet files... everything was working fine for a year and suddenly 40 minutes ago both of my apps are getting: "Unauthorized client or scope in request" -- no settings were touched.
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[01:31:21] havenwood: not_a_robot: hi
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[01:33:35] not_a_robot: quick question, is more about oop than ruby exclusive
[01:33:44] not_a_robot: i have this class
[01:33:47] not_a_robot: https://gist.github.com/agush22/a2731da20662b12b4576
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[01:33:59] not_a_robot: its a robot that is supposed to roam around on a map
[01:34:30] not_a_robot: suppose a map can have many robots
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[01:35:25] not_a_robot: how would i organize the classes? when running the program, should i create a Map instance, and pass that to each robot
[01:35:37] not_a_robot: so each robot knows the boundary of the map
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[01:36:13] not_a_robot: or the map is supposed to have many rovers? which can't go outside the boundary
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[01:37:13] Papierkorb: not_a_robot: "Do one thing and do it well". in short, I'd have a Map and Rover class, and then maybe something like a World class, which has a map and many rovers in it
[01:37:50] not_a_robot: thanks @Papierkorb
[01:37:56] colstrom: @not_a_robot I'd use the has_a? sniff test. Does a Rover have a map? Does a Map have a Rover?
[01:38:12] not_a_robot: but how does each rover know the map boundaries?
[01:38:17] colstrom: Intuitively, it feels more like the Map has Rovers.
[01:38:32] colstrom: So I'd reframe that question.
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[01:38:42] colstrom: Which is responsible for enforcing those?
[01:38:54] colstrom: The boundaries are a property of the Map, right?
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[01:39:10] not_a_robot: yes suppose a map is 5x5
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[01:39:17] colstrom: The Rover doesn't really need to know what rules the map has internally.
[01:39:24] not_a_robot: how would a rover know not to go beyound that
[01:39:51] colstrom: It just does what it does, and when it tries to move, it sends its attempt to the Map. It either passes or fails.
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[01:41:05] colstrom: IMO, the Rover shouldn't know this. That domain logic belongs in the Map, which owns the boundaries.
[01:41:32] ramfjord: I feel like an idiot for not being able to figure this out from searching, but how would I define a method like :attr_accessor without modifying the Class class?
[01:41:59] ramfjord: I only want this method to be available on subclasses of some class I'm defining. Kind of like attr_accessible for ActiveRecord::Base
[01:42:26] ramfjord: what is the scope that I have available when I'm inside a "class Blah" block?
[01:42:27] colstrom: Consider: there may be non-Rover things moving on the Map, right? The bounds-checking shouldn't need to be reimplemented for each new class.
[01:43:14] colstrom: @ramfjord Would a module + include be viable for what you need?
[01:43:15] not_a_robot: @colstrom oh ok, so the map would have the position of each robot, and each robot just tries to moves and the map approves the boundaries
[01:43:23] not_a_robot: thanks! @colstrom
[01:43:46] colstrom: not_a_robot: Anytime!
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[01:45:15] Ox0dea: ramfjord: I suspect you're looking for the #inherited hook.
[01:45:22] ramfjord: colstrom: I'm not sure what you mean. Another way of explinaing what I want would be in "class A < MyClass ; col_mapping :a, :b ; end" - where can I define col_mapping besides the Class class
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[01:47:15] Ox0dea: ramfjord: https://eval.in/533631
[01:48:12] colstrom: @Ox0dea Good call! I hadn't thought of that.
[01:48:18] ramfjord: Ox0dea: excellent, that looks like exactly what I mean
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[02:25:12] ljames: I want to generate some code at runtime that will be used quite a lot during the program's runtime. The code cannot be generated at compile time because it completely depends on values known only at runtime. Efficiency is somewhat important because I expect to call the generated functions dozens of thousands of times to hundreds of thousands of times. How would I go about it? Eval some string of code, or maybe some sort of lambdas as closures?
[02:25:28] ljames: I would expect the lambdas to be cleaner to program, but maybe less efficient?
[02:25:45] Jon30: is anyone else having issues with google drive api today? I am using google_drive and google-api-client gems to authenticate and write to google drive's spreadsheet files... everything was working fine for a year and suddenly 40 minutes ago both of my apps are getting: "Unauthorized client or scope in request" -- no settings were touched.
[02:25:49] ljames: and the evals to take longer to run the first time
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[02:27:32] ljames: and I expect maybe few hundred generated functions, and each would be called as many times as I mentioned.
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[02:30:12] havenwood: ljames: you can define methods dynamically
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[02:30:39] ljames: havenwood, can you link me to the parts of the documentation I should read? I'm pretty new to Ruby
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[02:30:56] ljames: I know of Proc and lambda, although not all the particulars
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[02:31:57] ljames: I could obviously build the function body out of strings and generate the lambda string then eval it, but it seems ugly, even if I think it might be the most efficient way, because otherwise I have to build the lambdas out of many small chunks
[02:32:10] havenwood: ljames: ljames http://ruby-doc.org/core/Module.html#method-i-define_method
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[02:32:42] havenwood: >> ['x', 'y', 'z'].each { |letter| define_method letter, ->{ puts letter } }; y
[02:32:44] ruby[bot]: havenwood: # => y ...check link for more (https://eval.in/533652)
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[02:33:55] havenwood: ljames: It's pretty common in Ruby to dynamically generate methods.
[02:34:01] ljames: interesting
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[02:34:40] havenwood: You can make methods and instance variables and constants and such all dynamically with metaprogramming.
[02:34:43] ljames: a close enough example though would be that I would would be passed an array of unknown number of elements then I would need to generate a function that calls a function for each element of that array, so in your example I'd need 3 puts calls
[02:34:50] ljames: even the function body?
[02:35:41] Ox0dea: ljames: You should probably say something about what you're actually trying to do. :)
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[02:36:28] Ox0dea: You've given a whole lot of "how" without much "what" or "why", and that's usually a bad sign.
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[02:37:37] havenwood: ljames: I agree I've no clue what you're doing, but try this in irb/pry and see if it makes sense?: a = ['x', 'y', 'z']; a.each { |letter| define_method letter, ->{ a.each { |l| puts "#{letter}:#{l}" } } }
[02:37:45] ljames: Ox0dea, basically I'm reading some user inputted code in a restricted domain specific language and I need to compile that to something efficient, as the code will be called between 10-100k calls each.
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[02:38:16] ljames: the language itself is simple enough that I could build it out of lambdas maybe, but I think it might be too slow
[02:38:41] Ox0dea: You should probably switch to C?
[02:39:12] ljames: Ox0dea, I could, but most of the code is written in Ruby already
[02:39:19] Ox0dea: ljames: Ruby interfaces with C just fine.
[02:39:25] Ox0dea: And vice versa, should it come to that.
[02:39:48] ljames: I guess if the performance is truly poor I'll do that, but for now I wanted to see how far I could get without switching languages
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[02:40:17] Ox0dea: You'll have to say more about what you understand "compile" to mean in this context.
[02:40:31] havenwood: https://github.com/seattlerb/wilson
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[02:41:06] ljames: Ox0dea, just a set of simple expressions like ((x+123)*456)^789, similar to that, where x will be supplied at runtime
[02:41:11] ljames: its not quite that, but similar enough
[02:41:15] ljames: not even a turing complete language
[02:41:38] ljames: however the generated code has to be called a lot
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[02:42:24] ljames: the language the expressions are written isn't exactly that though
[02:42:31] Ox0dea: I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here, mate. :/
[02:43:06] Ox0dea: Unless you're talking about transforming these expressions into something more performant, you're going to be impeded by Ruby's performance characteristics.
[02:43:39] ljames: I can live with 100 slowdown from C, but not with 10k slowdown
[02:43:48] Ox0dea: I don't know what that means.
[02:44:13] ljames: take that expression and compile it to C code, then compile that to native code. now take the same expression in ruby and eval it
[02:44:31] ljames: is the ruby version runs 100 times slower it's acceptable to me, but 10000 slower and its no longer acceptable
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[02:46:02] ljames: <havenwood> https://github.com/seattlerb/wilson <-- haha, thanks, I actually have access to another x86 assembler from within ruby (metasm), although I haven't looked into how to get it to execute the native code
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[02:47:31] ljames: I guess if the performance is poor enough I can always go that way, as the variables in my expressions are fixed sized ints
[02:47:38] havenwood: "Ruby, the usually-less-than-10,000-times slower than C language."
[02:48:59] havenwood: ljames: Real benchmarks!
[02:49:34] ljames: I suppose I'll have to benchmark it afterwards, or maybe not if it turns out to be of satisfactory speed
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[02:51:36] ljames: thanks for the ideas havenwood, Ox0dea
[02:52:11] Ox0dea: ljames: Godspeed. :)
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[04:33:11] havenwood: yakbrown: hey
[04:33:29] havenwood: yakbrown: Ruby!
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[05:00:33] Mattx: Hey there!
[05:00:53] chagel: hi everyone
[05:00:56] Mattx: Quick question, can I create a Thread and don't run it until I invoke some method?
[05:01:21] Mattx: Something like: t = Thread.create do ... end // ... // t.start_now
[05:01:52] mozzarella: is that not how it works by default?
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[05:02:15] Mattx: when you do Thread.new or Thread.start it runs the block right away
[05:02:39] Mattx: (.create doesn't exist)
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[05:04:42] chagel: accidentally ran `brew upgrade` and ncurses has been updated to 6
[05:04:52] chagel: everything breaks..
[05:05:19] chagel: Now i can't install ruby 2.0 from rbenv/ruby-build
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[05:05:45] chagel: it says readline extension was not compiled
[05:05:56] chagel: anybody has a clue how to fix? thanks
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[05:08:52] eam: Chagel: not super familiar with brew, but install ncurses 5?
[05:09:07] eam: you should be able to have both versions installed at once
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[05:09:51] Ox0dea: Mattx: https://glot.io/snippets/eco613eutv
[05:10:04] Ox0dea: That demonstrates that Thread.new does not in fact execute the block you pass.
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[05:12:59] mozzarella: Ox0dea: https://glot.io/snippets/eco647pwtc
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[05:13:31] mozzarella: look at the output
[05:13:41] b0urne: Hi everyone i am stuck on this variable name. I have to call this [selectlist:0x3fe88e9a8628 type: name: p_tagrepl~: value: PARA2$COMB]. Since the name has colon in it. I can't change its value.
[05:14:32] b0urne: is i do xyz.p_tagrepl~: = "SOMEVAL" error :/ can't escape either i tried several ways.
[05:15:26] Ox0dea: mozzarella: Well, shucks, there's gotta be a way to spawn a Thread without immediately invoking it?
[05:15:41] Ox0dea: Not without some kind of sentinel value in the Thread body itself, I guess.
[05:16:27] b0urne: @mozzarella any ideas ?
[05:16:37] toretore: Thread.new{Thread.stop; ...}
[05:16:50] Ox0dea: I suppose that'd do it.
[05:16:52] mozzarella: Ox0dea: I thought it was the default behavior, either they changed it or I'm misremembering it
[05:17:18] Ox0dea: Nah, I think it's been this way from the start.
[05:18:17] Ox0dea: b0urne: You simply can't have invalid identifiers; consider using a Hash with String keys.
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[05:22:02] shevy: do a lot of people use e. g. puts "foo "\"bar" where "bar" would be on the next line
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[05:26:41] Mattx: Ox0dea, doesn't make sense
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[05:28:13] Mattx: Ox0dea, https://glot.io/snippets/eco6jf19dx
[05:28:49] Ox0dea: Mattx: Yeah, my bad; the block does execute.
[05:28:59] Mattx: your code has a race condition
[05:29:41] Mattx: any other idea on how to do this?
[05:31:53] Ox0dea: Mattx: Are you going to be stopping and starting it, or just delaying the initial run?
[05:32:04] Mattx: delaying the initial run
[05:32:32] toretore: what is the problem you're trying to solve?
[05:32:48] Mattx: I'm trying to create a thread and don't run it until I want
[05:32:54] Mattx: Something like: t = Thread.create do ... end // ... // t.start_now
[05:33:05] toretore: no, that's your proposed solution to the problem
[05:33:33] toretore: your problem is likely to synchronize the thread with the main thread
[05:35:25] Mattx: not exactly, the problem is that I'm saving who created what thread (the parent, aka: main thread or another thread)
[05:35:58] Mattx: one sec, I'm writing a demo
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[05:39:02] Mattx: https://glot.io/snippets/eco6u3e804 toretore
[05:39:53] Mattx: it doesn't work in that the thread can potentially run before line 10 is executed
[05:40:51] toretore: Mattx: seems a little contrived. what's the purpose of this?
[05:41:39] Mattx: toretore, this is what I can do https://glot.io/snippets/eco6wnbfwl
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[05:41:48] Mattx: but I don't like it :P
[05:42:03] toretore: it is a synchronization problem, and there are various ways of solving it
[05:42:19] toretore: but i'd like to know what the actual problem is
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[05:43:41] Mattx: I'm writing a library to sync the work of many scrappers that start other "specialized scrappers" sometimes
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[05:44:56] toretore: and what does sync mean in this case?
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[05:45:34] toretore: it's quite impossible to give advice on concurrency issues without knowing the full context
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[05:46:39] Mattx: it sync the output basically, I buffer it until the thread end
[05:47:08] Mattx: also I'm syncing when they run, because some scrappers can run concurrently while others has to wait for a result from a previous one
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[05:48:08] toretore: so you have a bunch of threads doing some work, and you have various synchronization points where you have to wait for one or more threads to finish
[05:48:33] Mattx: that's right
[05:48:58] toretore: if one thread starts another "sub" thread, it must wait for it?
[05:49:11] Mattx: the output sync is also important, otherwise it's painful to follow the process
[05:49:25] Mattx: yes, they have to wait for all its children
[05:49:48] toretore: ok, so that's not a problem; it will know the identity of all of them as it was the one to start them
[05:50:31] toretore: you have a hierarchy of threads and each thread waits for the threads it started
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[05:52:22] toretore: results = 5.times.map{ Thread.new{ [do_some_work] + rand.times.map{ do_some_work }.map(&:value) } }.map(&:value)
[05:54:35] Mattx: toretore, I can write custom thread code for each scrapper, but I'm writing a lib instead
[05:54:50] Mattx: how would you solve the original problem?
[05:55:44] toretore: what is the original problem?
[05:56:06] Mattx: how to delay a thread until I execute a method
[05:56:30] Mattx: like with other languages in which threads don't start until you .start() them
[05:56:54] toretore: Thread.new{Thread.stop}
[05:57:27] Mattx: hmn, interesting
[05:57:43] Mattx: and how you make it continue?
[05:57:53] Mattx: (I'm checking the docs)
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[05:59:09] toretore: the problem isn't that you have to delay a thread start, it's that said thread must wait for some other condition
[05:59:34] Mattx: doing that with .stop wouldn't work
[05:59:45] Mattx: t = Thread.new { sleep 1; Thread.stop; puts "WHOPS!" }; t.run
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[06:00:03] Mattx: if the thread runs after the t.run it will stop forever
[06:00:21] toretore: that's why Thread.stop is first
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[06:00:36] Mattx: no, the thread will generally run after t.run
[06:00:45] Mattx: doesn't matter if it has sleep or not
[06:00:56] Mattx: not always, buy generally
[06:01:06] Mattx: because the main thread has the processor, the thread will be delayed just a little bit
[06:01:33] toretore: right, and that's why it's not an appropriate solution to your problem
[06:01:44] Mattx: that's what I said :p
[06:02:00] Mattx: any other idea?
[06:02:07] toretore: i've given you many
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[06:02:15] Mattx: look, there's an example on the official docs
[06:02:18] toretore: what you want is impossible in ruby
[06:02:22] Mattx: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.2.0/Thread.html#method-c-stop
[06:02:50] Mattx: sleep 0.1 while a.status != "sleep"
[06:03:15] drbrain: Thread.pass > sleep
[06:03:49] Mattx: "pass: Give the thread scheduler a hint to pass execution to another thread. A running thread may or may not switch, it depends on OS and processor."
[06:03:55] Mattx: "A running thread may or may not switch"
[06:04:07] Mattx: if it doesn't, good luck with the rest of the code
[06:04:19] drbrain: sorry, reading scrollback
[06:04:25] drbrain: I just responded to that last bit
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[06:06:46] drbrain: does it need to be a new thread every time?
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[06:08:05] drbrain: I suppose you could do q = Queue.new; t = Thread.new { q.pop.run }; history[id] << t.object_id; q << -> { whatever_work_you_want_to_do }
[06:08:20] drbrain: Mattx: ↑ ?
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[06:08:42] drbrain: s/run/call
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[06:10:29] Mattx: hmn, let me see
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[06:11:13] drbrain: the other option is using Mutex
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[06:11:47] drbrain: m = Mutex.new; m.lock; t = Thread.new { m.lock; whatever_work_you_want_to_do }; history[id] << t.object_id; m.unlock
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[06:12:38] drbrain: or even m.synchronize block around creating thread and recording the id
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[06:17:50] Mattx: I guess that would work
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[06:26:21] toretore: Mattx: https://gist.github.com/toretore/fd4ff547ad10493bdcfa
[06:26:44] toretore: this is a generic problem that's been solved many times and this implementation is likely incorrect
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[06:55:48] Mattx: I guess that would work
[06:55:54] Mattx: err, wrong pasted :P
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[06:57:48] chagel: eam: thanks. i've reinstalled readline in homebrew and it works.
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[07:13:55] phredus: Hello anyone can please help me with installing rails on gentoo, currently running ruby 2.1.7, thanks
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[07:17:05] havenwood: phredus: Have you already tried `gem install rails` and that didn't work?
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[07:19:48] havenwood: phredus: Ah, or wanting to use the portage rails package? The #RubyOnRails channel would be a good place to follow up for Rails-specific installation questions.
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[07:31:33] phredus: I used This "http://wklej.org/id/2077296". This is the error im getting http://wklej.org/id/2077296
[07:32:03] phredus: gem install rails as root or user?
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[07:36:43] phredus: havenwood: Ok Ill try that channel thanks
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[07:41:11] Ox0dea: phredus: Why Gentoo?
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[07:45:12] phredus: Ox0dea: That is the OS I am using on this perticular system, why? did I answer your question? I'm not really understanding your question, sorry
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[07:47:24] Ox0dea: A wild Gentoo user appeared! Ox0dea used Passing Interest. It's not very effective...
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[07:52:11] Jonno_FTW: I'm trying to convert a line of ruby to python,
[07:52:48] Jonno_FTW: does 'n << [x-1, y] if x > 0 && grid[y][x-1] & IN != 0' only append if the conditional is true?
[07:52:53] baweaver: #python would be a better place to ask
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[07:53:44] Jonno_FTW: well is my assumption right though?
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[07:54:07] baweaver: Unary & would probably break it
[07:54:27] Ox0dea: I don't see a unary &.
[07:54:40] baweaver: terms are hard today
[07:54:54] baweaver: what's the word I'm looking for there?
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[07:55:34] Hanmac: Jonno_FTW: that might work on python too, but i think you might need to put (grid[y][x-1] & IN != 0) inside brackets
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[07:56:10] Hanmac: baweaver: you mean the bit-wise & ?
[07:56:15] baweaver: that was it
[07:56:28] Ox0dea: It's a boolean & here.
[07:56:36] Ox0dea: >> true & false
[07:56:37] ruby[bot]: Ox0dea: # => false (https://eval.in/533734)
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[07:58:10] phredus: Ox0dea: Would you please clarify your question? Are you trying to help me?
[07:58:25] Ox0dea: phredus: I just like knowing why people choose Gentoo, mate.
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[07:58:45] baweaver: because it's there
[07:58:54] Ox0dea: That's usually about the size of it.
[07:59:02] baweaver: kinda like Everest
[07:59:20] baweaver: except one is likely to kill you and leave you without hope for the rest of your life, and the other is a mountain
[07:59:50] Ox0dea: Jonno_FTW: The use of `&` instead of `&&` there is unnecessary confusion, but it binds more tightly than `&&` anyway, so the semantics aren't changed any; it's still just a chained conditional, and yes, it controls whether or not the push occurs.
[08:00:25] phredus: Ox0dea: oh, your research. I see. try #gentoo shitload of guys there that will happily tell you all about it, they helped me. :) Good luck.
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[08:00:30] baweaver: `operation if condition` is the same as `if condition; operation end` essentially.
[08:00:34] Jonno_FTW: Ox0dea: thanks for the help
[08:01:02] baweaver: not sure about precedence in Python and how that'd translate though
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[08:08:30] Hanmac: Ox0dea: no its not a boolean & there, because " grid[y][x-1] & IN != 0" in that it does use the value of the grid, does make a bitvise AND with it, and does check if it isnt zero ... means it does check if IN is set for the grid value.
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[08:10:42] Ox0dea: hanmac: You're right.
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[08:16:44] Ox0dea: hanmac: Do you like my 18-bit Tic-tac-toe board? https://eval.in/533748
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[08:17:20] Ox0dea: I tried to see how to do it with 15 bits (optimal), but my twiddle-fu isn't strong enough.
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[09:21:37] phredus: Ox0dea: You might enjoy this article, I'de be pleased to hear what you think. https://timboudreau.com/blog/gentoo/read
[09:22:12] phredus: badeball: You might enjoy this article, I'de be pleased to hear what you think. https://timboudreau.com/blog/gentoo/read
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[09:26:44] claw: if i would do some aes file crypto with ruby how can i make sure that there a no caches used ? e.g. FS cache
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[09:29:45] nocontrol: has anyone ever worked with ioctl in linux ?
[09:29:50] nocontrol: and ruby of course
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[09:33:18] N3sh108: hey, I am trying to compare 2 CSV files and file whether an element is NOT present in the second file
[09:33:37] N3sh108: I tried using diffy but it failed with an element, stating that it wasn’t contained in the 2nd file when it was there
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[09:33:56] N3sh108: would you suggest some other way?
[09:34:11] N3sh108: I tried using CSV.read and include? but that doesn’t work with that
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[09:42:55] apeiros: N3sh108: what's an "element" in a CSV file?
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[09:43:10] N3sh108: the CSV is just a 1 column file
[09:43:10] apeiros: I know rows, columns and cells.
[09:43:15] N3sh108: so an element is basically the cell
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[09:43:47] apeiros: read it into an array, and then ary1-ary2 gives you all elements which are in ary1 but not in ary2
[09:43:59] N3sh108: let me try
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[09:45:49] apeiros: I'm not quite sure how a 1-column csv file is still a csv file - quoted values using csv quoting rules?
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[10:57:03] trosborn: when referring to class methods in writing, would you still use this format: ClassName#method_name or is that only for instance methods?
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[10:59:43] adaedra: Class.method, Instance#method, Class::CONSTANT
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[11:25:36] b|ackwolf: how does public_method_defind? returns true in this code? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/102783b96d957f9aa549
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[12:17:12] ferr: Hey, I have PHP and JS samples to generate signature, I've tried this in ruby, however, unsuccessfully, any ideas? https://gist.github.com/Fercell/e9030c07c31abc0eab75
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[12:20:21] Hanmac: ferr: 1.hour is a rails(active_support) method, maybe thats the problem?
[12:20:41] ferr: hanmac: I will run this on rails backend
[12:21:06] ferr: So that's not the issue
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[12:21:40] ferr: I believe the issue is php rawlurlencode function, I need the same output
[12:27:17] Hanmac: ferr: i will check this out ... did you check if you get the right expired date? because DateTime.now + 1.hour might not do what you want
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[12:32:05] ferr: hanmac: I've checked all params, let me double check
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[12:33:02] Hanmac: hm i also think rawurlencode might be the problem ... moment i am testing if i can get it working
[12:36:19] ferr: https://www.functions-online.com/rawurlencode.html produces with yENlnidsOto63GzAPrB24cCAM78%3D%5Cn and CGI with yENlnidsOto63GzAPrB24cCAM78%3D%0A
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[12:39:05] Hanmac: ferr hm from i see now, its not the rawurlencode which is the problem, but it seems that hmac does return different things on ruby and on php (and so the Base64 encoded strings are different) ... but i currently cant understand why ... i used fixed expires to test the output.
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[12:43:32] ferr: Oh hanmac
[12:44:27] Hanmac: i did use hexdigest (and non-raw for php) for better compare ... for me, the digest are different and i dont know why :/ (or does it should be like that?)
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[12:52:45] Hanmac: ferr: i found the problem after some googleing: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1336909/ruby-and-php-hmacs-not-agreeing "ruby's OpenSSL::HMAC.hexdigest expects first key and then message."
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[12:53:38] ferr: Oh yea, let me check now
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[12:56:41] ferr: Shall I use OpenSSL::HMAC.digest or OpenSSL::HMAC.hexdigest
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[12:57:48] Hanmac: ferr: hm depends, what your output do you want to look like
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[12:58:25] Hanmac: also: i would use "expires = (Time.now + 60 * 60).to_i" instead of DateTime + 1.hour because it might be doing something wrong for you
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[13:02:27] morfin: >> Thread.new{puts "thread hello"}
[13:02:28] ruby[bot]: morfin: # => (https://eval.in/533984)
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[13:15:17] adaedra: Yep, you can't thread on eval.in
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[13:23:27] ferr: hanmac: I've solved this. I had chomp the \n from Base64.encode as well. Thanks for your help
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[14:32:35] al2o3-cr: does Zlib handle tar.gz ?
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[14:35:31] apeiros: al2o3-cr: it handles the .gz part of tar.gz
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[14:36:16] al2o3-cr: apeiros: would i have to use Gem::Package::TarReader with Zlib?
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[14:37:07] apeiros: not sure. last time I had to read tar I wanted to do it in-memory so I copied code from iirc minitar.
[14:37:38] fschuindt: How can I eval a code here in IRC? There's any bot?
[14:38:02] al2o3-cr: apeiros: ok, thanks anyway
[14:38:21] Hanmac: i once had a gem which does use libarchive to open and save nearly everything, but i might need to rewrote it because i didnt touched it for to long.
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[14:38:41] al2o3-cr: will take a look at minitar :)
[14:38:59] fschuindt: 2218.45 / (500/1000) => Infinity; I was expecting 4436.9, lol. Any tip?
[14:39:21] Hanmac: fschuindt:
[14:39:21] Hanmac: >> 500/1000
[14:39:22] ruby[bot]: hanmac: # => 0 (https://eval.in/534056)
[14:39:55] fschuindt: My calculator shows 0.5
[14:40:06] apeiros: fschuindt: integer division
[14:40:07] Hanmac: >> 2218.45 / (500/1000r)
[14:40:08] ruby[bot]: hanmac: # => 4436.9 (https://eval.in/534057)
[14:40:09] apeiros: returns an integer
[14:40:10] adaedra: Because integer division
[14:40:15] adaedra: Because ninja'd
[14:40:16] apeiros: and there is no 0.5 in integer domain
[14:40:18] al2o3-cr: >> 2218.45 / (500/1000.0)
[14:40:19] ruby[bot]: al2o3-cr: # => 4436.9 (https://eval.in/534058)
[14:40:25] apeiros: ACTION ninjas adaedra some more
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[14:40:34] apeiros: fschuindt: my tip would be /(500/1000) is static and equivalent to *2
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[14:40:58] adaedra: why use the simpler way when you can do it the complex way?
[14:41:13] ljarvis: ^ my life motto
[14:41:37] apeiros: I'm sure there's a more complex expression to express *2 than /(500/1000) for that case
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[14:42:38] apeiros: ACTION still has to get used to 1/2r literals
[14:42:44] apeiros: but I really like having them :)
[14:43:14] Hanmac: yeah but i still need the () because: 2218.45 / 500/1000r doesn't work
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[14:45:49] neohunter: can i do something like /%s/ % "string"
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[14:45:56] neohunter: with string is possible, but with regex?
[14:46:14] neohunter: (i mean, it says udnefined method % on a regex, but may there is one way...?
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[14:46:32] apeiros: neohunter: you can do /#{string_or_regex}/
[14:47:09] neohunter: apeiros yeah... but i was thinking in defining the regex as a constant...
[14:47:46] apeiros: you mean as a template - no. doesn't exist.
[14:48:01] apeiros: you can do ->(subst) { /#{subst}/ }
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[14:48:16] adaedra: But you can also do Regexp.new('%s' % 'string')
[14:48:18] apeiros: store that in the constant, then do Const["subst"]
[14:49:15] neohunter: adaedra ok of course! thanks.
[14:49:27] neohunter: apeiros thats a lambda?
[14:49:31] neohunter: how could I use this?
[14:49:38] apeiros: yes. the way I just showed you.
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[14:50:04] apeiros: oh, which tanks?
[14:50:28] apeiros: leopards? tigers? abrams?
[14:50:43] adaedra: ACTION puts apeiros in a tank
[14:50:52] apeiros: it's hard to ninja in a tank
[14:50:56] apeiros: BUT I CAN DO IT!
[14:50:57] al2o3-cr: i think he means a fish tank :P
[14:50:59] adaedra: now go invade Russia
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[14:51:27] apeiros: al2o3-cr: I'm bound to link the cyanide & happiness tank video now, aren't I?
[14:51:51] apeiros: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo1tjBmwuXI
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[15:04:49] Kodan: Hi all, newbie and a dumb question: is ruby still worthwhile now that NodeJS + friends seems to be out competing ruby on rails? Or is it still worth learning?
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[15:07:31] ljarvis: you're right that is newbie and dumb
[15:07:59] ljarvis: did you ask the same question on the node irc channel?
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[15:08:36] shevy: actually, I could swear that this question happened perhaps a month or two ago
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[15:09:48] Kodan: ljarvis: Nope, never been to the node irc
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[15:16:44] yorickpeterse: Kodan: No, you should be using COBOL
[15:16:48] ljarvis: you should do some research and form your own opinion
[15:16:49] yorickpeterse: you probably never heard of it
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[15:17:25] yorickpeterse: In all seriousness, like ljarvis do some research and figure it out yourself; that's the only way to get a good understanding
[15:17:37] Kodan: I am doing so - this is part of that :)
[15:17:51] Kodan: Initially I wasn't going to consider it, but I saw that it's still pretty popular
[15:17:54] yorickpeterse: You're asking a Ruby IRC channel whether they think Ruby or NodeJS is better
[15:18:06] ljarvis: this isn't research, it's not a neutral opinion
[15:18:08] havenwood: ACTION grabs a pitchfork
[15:18:20] Kodan: :P I believe I asked just what the future looks like for ruby
[15:18:26] ljarvis: it looks glorious?
[15:18:32] ljarvis: happy? going to write rails forever now?
[15:18:39] havenwood: Kodan: Ruby 3.0 in 2020, just you wait!
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[15:19:15] Kodan: Lol well thanks guys :D
[15:19:18] yorickpeterse: Kodan: realistically Ruby is here to stay for at least another 10 years
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[15:22:06] yorickpeterse: Node on the other hand will probably vanish
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[15:22:36] yorickpeterse: unless they suddenly pull their heads out of their arses and actually support multi-threading
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[15:23:24] yorickpeterse: also Elixir appears like it might become very popular in 5-10 years
[15:23:35] yorickpeterse: but I'm basing all this on my armchair science
[15:23:50] ljarvis: I'll bet my life on the same science
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[15:24:02] havenwood: Kodan: Learn Elixir, we have spoken.
[15:24:03] ljarvis: all hail yorick
[15:24:05] shevy: Ox0dea, nobu is hiding more stuff from you! https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/trunk/ChangeLog#L13
[15:24:46] yorickpeterse: ljarvis: I am a wizard
[15:24:52] havenwood: Ruby or languages written by Rubyists are kosher.
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[15:25:54] yorickpeterse: Actually, I think once (and if) web assembly takes off we might finally be able to get rid of JS as well
[15:26:02] shevy: good news!
[15:26:15] ljarvis: not in this life
[15:26:17] havenwood: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript
[15:26:23] ljarvis: JS WILL NEVER DIE
[15:26:26] ljarvis: IT IS IN US ALL
[15:26:43] yorickpeterse: I personally can't wait to run brainfuck in the browser
[15:27:02] havenwood: yorickpeterse: There's always JSFuck in the meantime.
[15:27:05] yorickpeterse: "What do you use for your website, jQuery?" "Oh no, just Brainfuck"
[15:27:14] havenwood: http://www.jsfuck.com/
[15:27:30] yorickpeterse: Oh yeah, that one
[15:27:34] havenwood: poor ebay http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/02/ebay-has-no-plans-to-fix-severe-bug-that-allows-malware-distribution/
[15:27:38] yorickpeterse: see, that alone should be reason #1 to kill JS
[15:27:39] morfin: i dreamed about that
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[15:27:53] shevy: lol jsfuck
[15:28:00] morfin: we can have small JS interpreted for Brainfuck
[15:28:06] morfin: *interpreter
[15:30:00] morfin: String - [] + []
[15:30:18] morfin: that actually gives "" in JS
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[15:31:01] havenwood: morfin: 'NaN'
[15:31:23] morfin: weird, with V8 it gave me ""
[15:31:42] morfin: and with Gecko as well
[15:32:07] havenwood: morfin: You mean `String - [] + []` or just `[] + []`?
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[15:32:54] yorickpeterse: hm this reminds me I really need to kick up the pace of my own language
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[15:32:59] yorickpeterse: been stuck on the parser for too long now
[15:33:06] yorickpeterse: but we're getting there ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ
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[15:33:39] ljarvis: but can i build a web framework in it
[15:33:44] ljarvis: a MICRO framework
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[15:33:47] ljarvis: yeah one of those
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[15:34:27] morfin: just [] + []
[15:34:37] yorickpeterse: once I build an HTTP parser, a package manager, a GC, a JIT, etc, etc
[15:34:45] ljarvis: so soon then
[15:34:46] morfin: let's create Fuck++
[15:34:50] ljarvis: my new startup can use it
[15:34:54] yorickpeterse: Yeah "soon" as in "maybe in 5 years"
[15:35:12] ljarvis: also known as "very soon" to apeiros
[15:35:15] yorickpeterse: Though once I get past the parser (which is sooooo boring) I hope the pace kicks in
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[15:35:48] yorickpeterse: Then I need to write a basic compiler
[15:35:53] yorickpeterse: then I need to re-write that one in the language itself
[15:35:55] yorickpeterse: then bootstrap it
[15:35:57] yorickpeterse: then write a GC
[15:36:00] yorickpeterse: in the language itself, ideally
[15:36:07] yorickpeterse: which will take months of learning LLVM
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[15:36:13] yorickpeterse: and probably months of fighting Rust LLVM bindings
[15:36:23] yorickpeterse: or maybe I'll just use their C API directly
[15:36:27] ljarvis: your timeline is opimistic
[15:36:49] yorickpeterse: oh, it will be another 2 years before all that is done I think
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[15:36:54] yorickpeterse: The JIT will come last
[15:36:58] yorickpeterse: since LLVM's docs suck
[15:37:04] umdstu: trying to build ruby on a machine, forgot to include readline with it the first time. when i use --with-readline-dir=/usr for the ./configure command, the option isn't in "Configured with..." that prints at the end
[15:37:06] yorickpeterse: and LLVM itself is a beast
[15:37:19] yorickpeterse: I'm kinda hoping that by postponing it something easier to use than LLVM pops up in the mean time
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[15:37:38] ljarvis: I thought llvm was the sticky icky
[15:37:57] yorickpeterse: LLVM right now is like the only way to build JITs/AOT compilers unless you hate yourself
[15:38:05] yorickpeterse: You can build it on top of gcc, though that doesn't really work for JITs
[15:38:08] yorickpeterse: and libjit is dead
[15:38:25] ljarvis: i'll wait for libyorick
[15:38:35] yorickpeterse: Webkit's new JIT thing looks interesting but from what I can tell it's not really meant to be a generic library
[15:38:45] yorickpeterse: instead it seems to be more of a new webkit specific thing
[15:39:00] yorickpeterse: ljarvis: my idea was to build a C FFI API in the language, then use that to load LLVM's C API
[15:39:05] yorickpeterse: then use that to write the JIT in the language itself
[15:39:07] havenwood: umdstu: ./configure --with-opt-dir=/path/to/readline/dir
[15:39:10] morfin: i remember some guy said LLVM have big loading time
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[15:39:31] yorickpeterse: morfin: LLVM isn't the fastest kid on the block, no
[15:39:32] al2o3-cr: Gem::Package::Tar{Reader,Writer} are very useful indeed :)
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[15:39:45] yorickpeterse: which is why people generally complain it's not suitable for JIT compilation
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[15:39:59] yorickpeterse: also they keep changing their JIT APIs
[15:40:05] yorickpeterse: e.g. they had a JIT API, then added "MCJIT"
[15:40:08] yorickpeterse: Then added a 3rd thing
[15:40:08] morfin: basically that was guy from #hack channel
[15:40:13] yorickpeterse: now they're working on a fourth IIRC
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[15:40:42] morfin: sorry, from #hhvm
[15:41:03] morfin: i was asking why Facebook created own VM instead of using LLVM
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[15:42:18] havenwood: morfin: http://hhvm.com/blog/10205/llvm-code-generation-in-hhvm
[15:42:43] morfin: LLVM is fine for C/C++ => native machine code
[15:42:45] umdstu: morfin: probably same reason they created react.js
[15:42:57] morfin: react.js is weird thing
[15:43:21] umdstu: morfin: ... because they couldn't figure out how to use existing technologies to do what they wanted!
[15:43:34] morfin: i was looking at that but i saw benchmarks and it was pretty fast
[15:43:56] morfin: well, maybe they understand that not enought just use some technologies and create own ones
[15:44:06] umdstu: yea? that's good
[15:44:10] yorickpeterse: umdstu: Euh, no
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[15:44:12] morfin: there is also React.native for mobile applications
[15:44:27] yorickpeterse: The argument of LLVM not being as suitable for dynamic languages as for static languages has some truth to it
[15:44:27] umdstu: morfin: hadn't heard of that one
[15:44:59] yorickpeterse: e.g. compile times is one problem, difficulties in supporting GCs in multi-threaded languages is another
[15:45:00] umdstu: yorickpeterse: i was being a bit flippant
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[15:45:12] morfin: it looks similar to React.js(except specifics of movile applications), but nice
[15:45:12] yorickpeterse: That is, last I checked LLVM's GC support for multi-threading was problematic
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[15:46:34] morfin: i think Facebook inventing own HHVM/Hack wheel because they have tonns of old code
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[15:47:13] morfin: and want make that work faster than just PHP(HHVM is almost compatible with PHP except maybe some things like annotations)
[15:49:20] yorickpeterse: When you have millions of lines of code in X it makes sense to write a better version of X
[15:49:34] yorickpeterse: as it's probably faster/easier than re-writing everything in Y and re-training everybody for Y
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[15:51:18] umdstu: havenwood: is that the new option for including things like readline and ssl and yaml libs ?
[15:51:31] morfin: yes, that's a point
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[15:52:12] havenwood: umdstu: not new, but yeah, colon delimited
[15:52:45] morfin: but what if creating/maintaining better X is more expensive?
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[15:53:27] umdstu: alright thanks man
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[15:59:23] ashishjain: Hello a newbie here trying to modify html.erb files
[15:59:37] ashishjain: but somehow changes made to this file are not reflected once I restart my server
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[15:59:53] ashishjain: Can someone please advice how to go about modifying an html.erb file
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[16:02:53] havenwood: ashishjain: Sounds suspicious... Does it still work with the file moved or deleted? :O Are you sure you've got the right file and right server?
[16:02:55] darix: restart your server after changing it?
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[16:03:24] ashishjain: havenwood, Yes I have got the right file,
[16:03:33] ashishjain: darix, I did restart the server
[16:03:48] ashishjain: bin/env bin/bundle exec bin/thin -p 3000 start
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[16:03:56] ashishjain: this is how start the server
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[16:04:11] ashishjain: havenwood, will try moving the file
[16:05:13] ashishjain: havenwood, it works even after moving the file
[16:05:32] ashishjain: do i need to rebuild this up?
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[16:12:06] benjwadams: How does rvm activate when `cd`ing into a directory?
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[16:12:58] ashishjain: guys can someone help
[16:13:17] umdstu: havenwood: now i get make has both : and :: entries. Stop. error when running make
[16:13:22] benjwadams: I'm trying to run some ancient scripts i inherited via a shell script and have to do something like `/bin/bash -l -c 'cd rubydir && ruby somefile.rb'` and would like to just activate rvm but don't know *how* because of black magic
[16:14:13] umdstu: tried make clean and it gets the same error
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[16:19:38] havenwood: benjwadams: For a newer project it's probably detecting a .ruby-version or .rvmrc file or a Gemfile with the Ruby version specified: https://rvm.io/workflow/projects
[16:20:02] havenwood: ashishjain: If it runs when not present, it's not what's running. Asset compilation going on?
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[16:20:42] ashishjain: havenwood, could it be cached in someway?
[16:21:01] havenwood: ashishjain: I dunno what your code does!
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[16:22:32] benjwadams: havenwood: probably more the gemfile paths? ruby version is the same but `rvm info` shows different gemfile paths
[16:23:03] ghr: anyone know if there's a page on ruby official support arragements, or is it pretty ad-hoc?
[16:23:09] havenwood: umdstu: I'd expect make clean to do the trick, hrm. Dunno!
[16:23:18] umdstu: havenwood: right?!
[16:23:25] havenwood: ghr: Arrangements?
[16:23:57] ghr: maintenance policy
[16:24:05] ghr: Something like http://guides.rubyonrails.org/maintenance_policy.html I guess
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[16:25:22] havenwood: benjwadams: Ah, .rvmrc can switch gemsets as well or a .ruby-gemset file. (Assuming you mean gemset, or do you really mean gemfile?)
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[16:26:07] havenwood: ghr: https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/news/2016/02/24/support-plan-of-ruby-2-0-0-and-2-1/
[16:26:22] benjwadams: probably gemsets? I'm not a rubinian, so I don't know the parlance
[16:26:36] ghr: Yeah I noticed that, but didn't know whether there was any timeline for current versions
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[16:26:50] ghr: e.g. Debian says there's support for Jessie until May 2020
[16:26:51] havenwood: benjwadams: Yeah, gemsets are an RVM thing that most folk use Bundler for now.
[16:27:20] havenwood: ghr: What's your current version?
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[16:27:56] havenwood: ghr: Ah, Jessie, so 2.1.
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[16:29:03] ghr: Yeah. We use rbenv in prod so not too worried about us specifically, but just wondering what the ruby core team's policy is on maintenance and support
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[16:29:16] havenwood: ghr: I'd expect Ruby 2.1 to reach end-of-life from Ruby's perspective on Feb 24, 2017.
[16:29:35] hxegon: hmm... http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.2.0/Regexp.html#method-i-named_captures
[16:29:46] havenwood: ghr: It'll be in security maintenance mode in a few weeks so it's days of bugfixes are about to end.
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[16:30:51] ghr: So security maintenance is about a year after bugfixes end?
[16:31:12] ghr: great, cheers :)
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[16:31:54] hxegon: ask yourself why that regex needs to be /(.)(.)/
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[16:32:54] quakephil_: Hi all! I have a little sinatra api svc I'm playing around with. I have a get route that works. But if I change the "get" to "post" in the code (and accordingly in postman) it breaks with: Unexpected error while processing request: bad content body
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[16:37:13] hxegon: quakephil_ it would help if there was more detail. What is the request body?
[16:37:54] quakephil_: hxegon: I just figured it out... I was sending form-data in postman body, setting it to raw and now its working
[16:38:05] quakephil_: Had nothing to do with ruby :X but you were on the right track!
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[16:38:45] hxegon: quakephil_ :)
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[16:46:07] billy_ran_away: Can someone explain why this Regex isn't working for "Given a plan year, with premium tables, something else, exists", regex is: /a plan year(?:, ([^,]*),)* exists/
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[16:46:31] billy_ran_away: I would expect 2 captures, but I get none
[16:46:51] billy_ran_away: Playing with it at http://rubular.com/r/9OnOl0azit
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[16:47:47] al2o3-cr: is IO.copy_stream(open('http://foo.bar/path/to/foo.tar.gz'), 'foo.tar.gz') most efficient?
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[16:51:03] ljarvis: billy_ran_away: why would you expect two?
[16:51:32] ljarvis: billy_ran_away: and what exactly do you want? your regex is confusing
[16:51:53] billy_ran_away: ljarvis: Can I do a variable number of captures?
[16:52:32] ljarvis: billy_ran_away: regular expressions don't work like that by default, what result do you want?
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[16:53:32] billy_ran_away: ljarvis: I want two captures from the 2nd example: 'with premium tables' and 'something else'
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[16:55:01] ljarvis: billy_ran_away: is this test string actually real, or are you doing this separately for each line for example?
[16:55:21] billy_ran_away: But I'd like it to be optional so that "Given a plan year exists" matches period, and if there is only one attribute it's captured, like "Given a plan year, with premium tables, exists"
[16:55:30] billy_ran_away: ljarvis: separately for each line
[16:55:56] tobiasvl: capture the entirety of the string between the prefix and suffix, and split it with commas?
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[16:56:15] tobiasvl: I didn't look too closely on what you're trying to do but that looks like the simplest solution
[16:56:31] billy_ran_away: tobiasvl: Yea that's one idea, it's lame, but it'd work
[16:56:51] tobiasvl: haha, why lame
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[16:57:40] billy_ran_away: because it's a cucumber step definition, i'd like to pass the proc a variable number of parameters and then just explode them to the helper method I'm using
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[16:58:48] billy_ran_away: tobiasvl: Here's what I'm trying to build: http://pastie.org/10755112
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[17:00:14] billy_ran_away: ljarvis: any luck?
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[17:02:20] gregf_: >> "Given a plan year, with premium tables, something else, exists"[/[^,]+,(?:, ([^,]*),)* exists/]; $~.captures
[17:02:21] ruby[bot]: gregf_: # => [nil] (https://eval.in/534203)
[17:02:33] gregf_: billy_ran_away: anyways that regex does not work ^^
[17:02:49] gregf_: btw, ?: is for ignoring captures
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[17:03:50] billy_ran_away: gregf_: Yea I know it is, because I don't want the ,'s in the captures, but I was trying to use them as anchors
[17:04:00] ljarvis: billy_ran_away: no, this is somewhere I'd probably use String#scan but not sure about cucumber because I refuse to use it
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[17:04:21] ljarvis: billy_ran_away: surely though you could just split the resulting capture later in your code?
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[17:05:22] ljarvis: it'd also mean a much less complex expression
[17:05:27] ljarvis: which is always a win
[17:05:48] billy_ran_away: ljarvis: yea I guess I'm going to have to do it that way
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[17:06:30] billy_ran_away: the frustrating part is I know it can be done the way I want to do it, just can't figure out how
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[17:07:39] ljarvis: are you sure? I'm pretty sure you want to repeat captures and I think each matched capture group will overwrite the last (hence #scan)
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[17:08:00] msg31: I have an unsatisfied exception in rspec. Is there anyway to see the value that is actually being got?
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[17:08:44] gregf_: billy_ran_away: whats it that your expecting? "with premium tables", " something else"?
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[17:08:46] msg31: This is my rspec output: http://fpaste.org/336827/
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[17:09:18] gregf_: oh well, cucumber. isn't capybara also use for integration testing?
[17:09:30] ljarvis: gregf_: what are you talking about?
[17:09:42] billy_ran_away: gregf_: not expecting as much as hoping lol
[17:09:53] billy_ran_away: but yea, ljarvis I think you're right
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[17:10:12] billy_ran_away: "-123-"[/-(\d)*-/]; $~.captures #=> ["3"]
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[17:10:42] norc: billy_ran_away, are you trying to parse cucumber code?
[17:10:48] ljarvis: msg31: what do you mean "the value that is being got"? it tells you what's expected and that didn't happen
[17:11:03] billy_ran_away: norc: writing a step definition
[17:11:19] norc: billy_ran_away, nevermind then.
[17:11:44] msg31: ljarvis, right it didn't get array with the values, but I want to know what array/values it actually got
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[17:14:17] msg31: ljarvis, I want to know what value is associated with ":execute"
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[17:14:56] umdstu: havenwood: just started fresh, no error. would the same command work to include openssl, libyaml, etc? it doesn't seem to be picking anything up but readline in /usr/
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[17:15:08] havenwood: umdstu: yup
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[17:17:45] havenwood: umdstu: maybe even gdbm while you're at it ;)
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[17:19:06] umdstu: never heard of it!
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[17:20:35] havenwood: Gnu dbm, ruby has DBM, GDBM, SDBM and even YAML::DBM for when you tire of only String values. :O
[17:21:07] havenwood: http://ruby-doc.org/stdlib/libdoc/yaml/rdoc/YAML/DBM.html
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[17:22:06] umdstu: interesting
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[17:23:11] umdstu: so its just a file base hash?
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[17:25:48] shevy: what is this dbm stuff used in ruby - I don't think I have ever used that before
[17:26:24] al2o3-cr: shevy: simple databases
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[17:28:38] shevy: well sqlite is simple!
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[17:33:24] go-nuts: im trying to understand this: const x = i % 8; const y = Math.floor(i / 8); const black = (x + y) % 2 === 1; i can be any nbr from 0 to 64 in a loop
[17:33:38] ljarvis: well that's not ruby
[17:33:46] go-nuts: it's for a chess board
[17:34:13] go-nuts: im conveting it to ruby so convert the syntax in your head if you can
[17:34:29] ljarvis: how about you convert the syntax and then ask for help with the code you produce?
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[17:35:53] ljarvis: are you unhappy that someone won't do this work for you?
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[17:35:59] go-nuts: x = i % 8 ; y = i/8 ; black = ((x+y) % 2 == 1)
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[17:36:54] ljarvis: that's not exactly the same, but anyway, which part don't you understand?
[17:37:21] go-nuts: what does this code mean? why do we need the modulo of 8 and i/8 just to set a cell to black=true or false. I'm trying to understand the math
[17:37:52] go-nuts: it's related to a chess board
[17:37:58] go-nuts: which has 64 cells
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[17:39:38] eam: go-nuts: looks like they're storing x/y coordinates in a single integer?
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[17:40:14] eam: x is stored as the values of 0 through 7, y is stored as multiples of 8
[17:40:32] eam: weird way to do it if that's the case
[17:40:53] ljarvis: they're just calculating the coordinates for each row, if you print them out for each iteration and follow a chess board you'll see how it works
[17:40:58] ljarvis: it's not how I'd write it though
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[17:41:09] apeiros: eam: that's just using an index instead of coordinates
[17:41:16] apeiros: used the same when I wrote my sudoku solver
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[17:41:32] eam: apeiros: yeah, I just don't get why y = i/8
[17:41:34] ljarvis: as someone who hates math, I do it the long way :D
[17:41:50] apeiros: i.e. you index all fields, top left is 0, bottom right is 80 (for sudoku - haven't read this case)
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[17:42:30] apeiros: so go-nuts is having a chess board from what I read in the backlog?
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[17:43:11] apeiros: i should only go from 0 to 63 then, though. not 64 as they report.
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[17:44:22] apeiros: it's rows * 8 + col (rows -> y, cols -> x), the reverse operation is done via divmod. that's why y = i/8
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[17:44:31] apeiros: *index = rows * 8 + col
[17:44:47] apeiros: maybe I'll get the plurals correct this time:
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[17:44:52] apeiros: index = row * 8 + col
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[17:45:54] al2o3-cr: Hey up, mathematics, the truthlessnessruthlessness of life :P
[17:45:58] apeiros: or maybe I misunderstood what you didn't get. having a headache and only glanced over it.
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[17:47:33] go-nuts: apeiros: does y represents rows?
[17:47:37] Hanmac: hm isn't "y, x = i.divmod(8)" way much better?
[17:47:48] apeiros: in ruby, certainly
[17:48:12] apeiros: whatever the original code is in might not support it
[17:48:30] go-nuts: apeiros: i think you're onto something. i just want to follow your reasoning
[17:48:54] apeiros: go-nuts: it's a chess board, right?
[17:49:03] go-nuts: apeiros: yes
[17:49:10] apeiros: i is just the index of the field. starts at 0 top left, top right is 7
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[17:49:16] apeiros: second row is 8-15
[17:49:30] apeiros: and so on, last row is 56-63
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[17:51:05] go-nuts: apeiros: how did you come up with the solution so fast - you so the connection right away index = rows * 8 + col
[17:51:17] apeiros: as said, I've implemented such things myself
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[17:51:29] go-nuts: apeiros: ok
[17:51:47] apeiros: for some operations, having a straight index on a flat array is easier than a nested array with a two-component coordinate
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[17:53:51] go-nuts: apeiros: can you explain i%8 and i/8 again...i understand but not 100%
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[17:54:09] Hanmac: thats math ;P
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[17:54:50] go-nuts: hanmac: i want to get the math
[17:54:52] apeiros: you get a new row every 8 cells
[17:55:01] apeiros: so cell-index/8 gives you the row
[17:56:07] apeiros: not sure how to explain it other than just paraphrasing the math operation in english…
[17:56:29] go-nuts: ok got the i/8 somehow..now what about i % 8
[17:56:46] apeiros: ok, say i=18, which row is it?
[17:57:12] workmad3: go-nuts: i % 8 == i - ((i / 8) * 8)
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[17:57:30] apeiros: third row, yes, but that's row 2 (we start counting at zero)
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[17:57:49] apeiros: so, y=2, with which i does that row start?
[17:57:58] apeiros: what's the index of the first cell on that row
[17:58:23] eam: the first three bits of the number are x, the second three are y
[17:59:06] apeiros: so how many cells to the right (-> x) is 18?
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[17:59:44] apeiros: so 16 = 18?
[17:59:51] apeiros: I'd love to see the reasoning for that :D
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[18:00:29] apeiros: so i=18 is y=2, x=2
[18:01:07] apeiros: and you got there by doing y = i/8, then i - y*8
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[18:01:24] apeiros: and that second step is precisely what the modulus operation does.
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[18:03:34] eam: >> sprintf("%06b", 18)
[18:03:43] eam: where's the bot? :(
[18:03:47] eam: => "010010"
[18:03:59] eam: go-nuts: the first three bits are y, the second three are x
[18:04:07] ruby[bot]: morfin: # => 1 (https://eval.in/534253)
[18:04:15] eam: does the bot hate me?
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[18:04:24] ljarvis: are you registered?
[18:04:26] morfin: if you're not registered then yes
[18:04:45] apeiros: hrmpf, I really got to fix the accouting of users
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[18:04:54] morfin: i had same bug before
[18:04:56] ljarvis: RIP ruboto
[18:04:59] shanemcd: has joined #ruby
[18:05:04] morfin: bot was ignoring me for a while
[18:05:08] ruby[bot]: has left #ruby: ("leaving")
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[18:05:23] ChanServ: +o ruby[bot]
[18:05:24] morfin: is ruby bot running on ruby?
[18:05:36] ljarvis: apeiros: too easy
[18:05:39] eam: >> "I love you ruby bot"
[18:05:40] ruby[bot]: eam: # => "I love you ruby bot" (https://eval.in/534254)
[18:05:46] go-nuts: apeiros: thanks lot
[18:05:48] eam: apeiros: thx
[18:05:54] apeiros: it somehow forgets people when it shouldn't.
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[18:06:13] morfin: jrb you mean?
[18:06:16] workmad3: >> puts "y = #{18 >> 3}, x = #{18 & 7}"
[18:06:17] ruby[bot]: workmad3: # => y = 2, x = 2 ...check link for more (https://eval.in/534255)
[18:06:35] eam: workmad3: see that's what I'd expect :D
[18:06:52] apeiros: crystal and elixir
[18:07:01] ljarvis: the drug, not the language
[18:07:07] workmad3: eam: it's only an optimisation you can use when your columns are a power of 8 though :)
[18:07:18] workmad3: *power of 2
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[18:07:54] apeiros: or a power of 3 if you have fuzzy/3-state bits :)
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[18:08:03] morfin: result is rounded?
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[18:08:19] eam: morfin: it's integer math, so it's truncated
[18:08:31] morfin: as i know it's same as 18/2^3 which is
[18:08:43] morfin: >> 18.0/8
[18:08:44] ruby[bot]: morfin: # => 2.25 (https://eval.in/534262)
[18:09:17] morfin: >> (18.0 >> 3)
[18:09:18] ruby[bot]: morfin: # => undefined method `>>' for 18.0:Float ...check link for more (https://eval.in/534264)
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[18:23:54] umdstu: so after rebuilding and installing ruby with ssl, readline, etc. I get an 'incompatible library version' error with thread.so when using the gem command
[18:25:16] umdstu: the gem binary didn't get updated with the ruby install
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[18:36:02] shevy: sounds as if you did something wrong
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[18:43:05] xgfnxftt: Today I learned that we are switching from Ruby to Go, Erlang, and Elixir.
[18:43:05] xgfnxftt: Some background: We are a development company with about 15 developers, some senior, some junior, and some in between. We have a so called SOA platform where most services are written in Rails with some custom modifications. We are having performance issues (100-200 req/second against hardware with several hundreds of cores & several hundred GB RAM) and issues with large amount of technical debt that gives us problems releasing new feat
[18:43:05] xgfnxftt: We have some Go code already and a few developers with a bit of Go experience. I think it's great to have the opportunity to learn new languages, but Im sceptical that switching language will improve the situation.
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[18:45:25] xgfnxftt: We are also going to stop using http/json calls between services and instead do protobuf over RabbitMQ
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[18:50:48] nickjj: xgfnxftt, have you tried replacing a few small services and then benchmark the changes?
[18:51:15] nickjj: nothing is going to give you an answer as accurate as actually testing the thing you're trying to figure out
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[18:54:31] xgfnxftt: nickjj, yes, we did an experiment with one service, on one machine the old code did about 50 req/sec, a go version did 100 req/sec and one in Ddid around 600 req/sec. It was a basically finding a record and returning it as json
[18:55:17] xgfnxftt: nickjj, we don't do caching btw
[18:55:38] nickjj: selective caching sounds a bit easier than rewriting your entire platform in a different language
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[18:56:21] xgfnxftt: i think so too
[18:56:35] nickjj: i'm also a bit surprised about your figures, even if your rails app could only pump out 10 reqs/second, then you shouldn't need more than 10 servers to reach 100/second
[18:57:47] xgfnxftt: well, its a lot of services talking to each other, not many instances of one service
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[18:59:30] xgfnxftt: i would expect a rails app to do a few hundred req/sec on a normal server unless it was doing something heavy
[18:59:48] nickjj: it's impossible to generalize reqs/s like that, because it depends on so many things
[19:00:07] nickjj: what type of server are you running? what is the app doing?
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[19:01:03] xgfnxftt: of course, but this was fetching a record and returning it as json, nothing heavy
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[19:02:02] xgfnxftt: it virtualized so not sure, it wasnt a prod machine anyway
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[19:03:11] nickjj: i would just do a cache/benchmark/repeat loop until your perform is good enough
[19:03:17] nickjj: *performance
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[19:03:57] nickjj: and before caching just do a once over on everything to track down poorly written queries (if any)
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[19:05:18] xgfnxftt: mm, somethng is weird when go is only twice as fast as ruby, but D is 5 times faster than Go
[19:06:14] xgfnxftt: also not sure hot switching language will help with code quality
[19:06:59] nickjj: often times the largest gains from rewrites are making funamental changes that could in theory be applied with any language
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[19:08:17] nickjj: obviously a compiled statically typed language will perform better too, no one will deny that, but massive perform improvements are a combination of a few things usually
[19:09:21] xgfnxftt: thats likely, but it depends on what the bottleneck is, if its the database it might not make a big difference
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[19:09:57] nickjj: right, and in a lot of cases your db will be your bottleneck
[19:10:24] nickjj: but then you can solve that somewhat easily by just caching things if your app is mostly read heavy (which most are)
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[19:12:01] xgfnxftt: well, its going to be interesting to see how it goes at least :)
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[19:32:41] c_nick: if i want to represent 123987456 in 4 characters will it be 1240 or 1239?
[19:32:43] acidrainfall: Can someone help me understand how to use this? http://www.rubydoc.info/gems/elasticsearch-api/Elasticsearch/API/Indices/Actions
[19:32:48] acidrainfall: https://github.com/elastic/elasticsearch-ruby/tree/master/elasticsearch-api
[19:33:20] acidrainfall: So that's the official documentation for the gem, I want to do an index action (which would curl /_all/_flush/synced
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[19:33:35] acidrainfall: But I can't... really figure out how this structure is supposed to work.
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[19:42:02] imperator: there any practical downside to setting TLSv1 as a default ssl_version for rest-client?
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[19:44:19] drbrain: imperator: I think anything that avoids SSLv2 or SSLv3 is optimal
[19:44:30] drbrain: so long as the user can downgrade if they want to be vulnerable it should be OK
[19:44:31] darix: imperator: people who should have upgraded their servers long ago will need to reconfigure it
[19:44:46] darix: what drbrain said
[19:44:51] imperator: drbrain, yeah, they can configure it if they want
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[19:45:25] darix: imperator: in 2017 we will make tls 1.1 default ok?:p
[19:45:51] imperator: darix, thanks :)
[19:46:05] imperator: right now it seems sslv3 is the default for net-http, is that right?
[19:46:15] drbrain: it probably shouldn't be
[19:46:17] darix: imperator: probably depends on the ruby version
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[19:47:00] darix: i wonder how hard it would be to detect the highest version supported by the openssl extension and just default to that for net/http
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[19:49:21] drbrain: I think the number of issues would be too high when the older versions of the protocol are still secure
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[19:56:16] JRod: Has anyone been seeing with 2.3.0 and Unicorn the error: Sys error location: socket.c:256
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[20:11:09] norc: jrod, googling indicates that this is related to zour ZeroMQ thing that you are running but neglected to tell us about.
[20:11:19] norc: jrod, (rbczmq)
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[20:11:50] JRod: norc: I did not realize it was related but if i listed everything i’d have a 2 page list here :)
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[20:11:57] norc: jrod, :P
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[20:12:14] norc: jrod, I was just pulling your leg there, its all fine.
[20:12:58] JRod: norc: I really appreciate the help thanks
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[20:14:55] JRod: norc: I’m not seeing it can I be a complete newb and ask for a link?
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[20:20:36] imperator: darix, drbrain, I'm actually having a hard time determine just what the default is for ssl_version
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[20:20:54] imperator: digging through the source...
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[20:28:03] norc: jrod, just google for "Sys error location" (using quotes)
[20:28:16] norc: jrod, you will quickly find this link: https://searchcode.com/codesearch/view/14937674/
[20:28:29] norc: That shows that the C extension is likely the one causing the error.
[20:28:41] norc: As for the actual code, you will have to follow the listed source file/line
[20:28:46] norc: *actual cause.
[20:29:02] JRod: yea, i mean i see some other libs having the issue in their travis results
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[20:32:00] norc: jrod, and this is something you are probably better off debugging using an actual debugger (gdb, lldb, or whatever floats your boat)
[20:32:12] JRod: yea, i get that
[20:32:48] JRod: I’m wondering if we got conflicts within zmq
[20:33:05] JRod: it also doesn’t help that its the “zone” AWS is having connectivity issues within
[20:33:17] JRod: so its possibly multiple levels
[20:33:26] JRod: possibly multiple issues occurring
[20:33:43] norc: jrod, I really recommend - dont guess - debug it.
[20:34:01] norc: Saves you plenty time of "guessing" while gaining experience in your libraries and debugging.
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[21:04:04] acidrainfall: So, regarding my question earlier, anyone interested in helping me out?
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[21:08:39] tobiasvl: what was your question exactly?
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[21:16:16] acidrainfall: I can't understand rdoc
[21:16:29] acidrainfall: http://www.rubydoc.info/gems/elasticsearch-api/Elasticsearch/API/Indices/Actions#flush_synced-instance_method
[21:16:33] acidrainfall: I don't understand how I'm supposed to use that.
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[21:17:19] tobiasvl: acidrainfall: what's your question?
[21:17:37] norc: acidrainfall, obj.flush_synced(index: ["foo", "bar"], allow_no_indices: true)
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[21:17:57] acidrainfall: http://www.rubydoc.info/gems/elasticsearch-api/Elasticsearch/API/Indices/Actions#flush_synced-instance_method
[21:18:00] norc: acidrainfall, just a random example. You could also pass an explicit hash like obj.flush_synced({index: ["foo", "bar"], allow_no_indices: true})
[21:18:06] acidrainfall: ./es_rolling_restart.rb:69:in `sync_flush': undefined method `flush_synced' for "apollo-d-01.lv.ntent.com":String (NoMethodError)
[21:18:13] acidrainfall: Yeah but obj.flush_synced doesn't work.
[21:18:22] tobiasvl: obj is a string?
[21:18:43] norc: People really need to learn to read exceptions and understand them. :
[21:18:50] acidrainfall: Oh god dammit
[21:19:01] acidrainfall: Learning is hard
[21:19:57] acidrainfall: ./es_rolling_restart.rb:69:in `sync_flush': undefined method `flush_synced' for "apollo-d-01.lv.ntent.com":String (NoMethodError)
[21:20:01] acidrainfall: Stop it clipboard
[21:20:14] acidrainfall: ./es_rolling_restart.rb:70:in `sync_flush': undefined method `flush_synced' for #<Elasticsearch::Transport::Client:0x00556db1d47b90> (NoMethodError)
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[21:20:22] acidrainfall: Yeah sorry I forgot I had messed with code in between my questions
[21:20:27] norc: acidrainfall, you are calling it on an instance of Elasticsearch::Transport::Clien
[21:20:44] acidrainfall: So that must be what I'm doing wrong. I'm sorta reverse engineering a script I picked up
[21:20:54] tobiasvl: you need to call it on an Elasticsearch::API::Indices::IndicesClient
[21:20:58] acidrainfall: I could have just done a quick http POST but I wanted to at least try learning how to use the API.
[21:21:02] tobiasvl: or something else that includes Elasticsearch::API::Indices::Actions
[21:21:20] tobiasvl: which is the module you linked to earlier
[21:21:24] norc: acidrainfall, look at the exception message.
[21:21:54] norc: acidrainfall, it basically tells you that the object does not respond to the method "flush_synced" - this usually always means you are calling a method on the wrong object.
[21:22:19] norc: >> a = {}; a.chomp
[21:22:21] acidrainfall: I just don't understand how I'm supposed to figure it out.
[21:22:21] ruby[bot]: norc: # => undefined method `chomp' for {}:Hash (NoMethodError) ...check link for more (https://eval.in/534406)
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[21:23:01] acidrainfall: They didn't document this bit in their API
[21:23:01] norc: acidrainfall, if you are diving into a script like that it can be beneficial to pry directly into where you are working at.
[21:23:08] norc: That way you can quickly inspect the objects around.
[21:23:14] acidrainfall: Well, I've gone to the docs of the actual gem
[21:23:19] acidrainfall: And they didn't even touch on how to use these methods
[21:23:21] acidrainfall: It's just there
[21:23:36] acidrainfall: Which I assume for a seasoned ruby veteran is obvious, but as I'm not, I'm struggling.
[21:24:11] norc: acidrainfall, browsing through the doc its not obscure really.
[21:24:22] norc: acidrainfall, http://www.rubydoc.info/gems/elasticsearch-api/Elasticsearch/API/Indices/Actions#flush_synced-instance_method
[21:24:36] norc: acidrainfall, top tells you that this method is part of a module, which is included in IndicesClient.
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[21:24:59] acidrainfall: Which is also apparently not a valid method
[21:25:30] norc: IncicesClient is a class.
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[21:26:32] norc: acidrainfall, honestly my best suggestion is: If you honestly want to quickly dive into a script with libraries you dont understand: Learn the library first. Get experienced so you know what you re doing. Hire someone to do it for you.
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[21:27:02] acidrainfall: That's not a realistic expectation
[21:27:04] acidrainfall: Hiring someone to do it.
[21:27:10] norc: acidrainfall, it quite is.
[21:27:19] acidrainfall: I'm trying to learn enough Ruby to skate by, in a company that has no Ruby experience aside from myself
[21:27:24] norc: acidrainfall, if you want someone else to do something for you, the common thing is to pay him.
[21:27:36] acidrainfall: I hate that that's your position every time someone asks a question
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[21:27:45] acidrainfall: Why be in a channel where noobs ask for help if you judge their stupid questions?
[21:28:09] norc: acidrainfall, you misunderstood my list of recommendations for shooting you down.
[21:28:09] acidrainfall: I'm trying to learn this with a very small amount of time given to me
[21:28:15] acidrainfall: I must have done.
[21:28:21] norc: acidrainfall, I was merely saying that these are the 3 realistic options you have for solving your issue.
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[21:28:52] acidrainfall: I'm here, trying to get experienced.
[21:29:10] norc: We can help you with that.
[21:29:31] acidrainfall: I have a meeting to run to.
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[21:43:12] postmodern: when would it be acceptable to use t2 - t1 instead of Benchmark.measure ?
[21:44:31] TRUMP4EVR: what does "out of char range (RangeError)" mean?
[21:45:05] TRUMP4EVR: I am simply pushing strings / ints onto another string with the << method
[21:47:02] eam: TRUMP4EVR: likely the ordinal values don't represent a character in your string's encoding
[21:47:14] quakephil_: Is there any way to test phpass generated nonportable passwords? https://github.com/uu59/phpass-ruby doesn't help as it handles portable passwords only :<
[21:47:53] quakephil_: Right now my solution is to call a little php script but that is such a kludge :X
[21:47:54] norc: quakephil_, help me with something.. what is a portable password?
[21:48:24] quakephil_: Portable one just uses md5 I think. Nonportable tacks on blowfish as per phpass spec
[21:48:25] TRUMP4EVR: eam what does that mean
[21:48:40] slash_nick: yeah, eam... what should he do? let's make his code great again!
[21:48:43] eam: >> "a".ord
[21:48:45] ruby[bot]: eam: # => 97 (https://eval.in/534413)
[21:48:58] eam: a character has an ordinal value represented as an integer, right?
[21:49:19] eam: all characters are integers. Not all integers are characters
[21:49:41] TRUMP4EVR: the string i'm adding to the other string is: 1457641078
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[21:50:01] eam: what character do you think 1457641078 represents?
[21:50:11] quakephil_: Maybe all I need is a bcrypt implement in ruby
[21:50:13] TRUMP4EVR: that's a whole string
[21:50:27] TRUMP4EVR: is that what's happening?
[21:50:36] eam: yeah it's like "foo" + 1457641078.ord
[21:50:40] eam: er 1457641078.chr
[21:51:03] eam: you want the actual string "1457641078" appended?
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[21:51:28] eam: you can << 1457641078.to_s if that's the case
[21:51:51] norc: asm>> ""<<1
[21:51:52] ruby[bot]: norc: I have disassembled your code, the result is at https://eval.in/534414
[21:52:08] norc: &ri String#<<
[21:52:08] `derpy: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.3.0/String.html#method-i-3C-3C
[21:52:16] slash_nick: neat feature (asm)
[21:52:17] norc: TRUMP4EVR, there.
[21:52:21] norc: The behavior is well documented.
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[21:52:57] norc: slash_nick, we also have a tokenizer and parser builtin too. :)
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[21:58:01] baweaver: ACTION sips tea
[21:58:47] norc: Tea time is over.
[21:59:14] baweaver: It's 2 o'clock somewhere.
[21:59:32] baweaver: (in this case, SF, so I'm good)
[22:00:50] norc: baweaver, tea time is well defined in terms of GMT. Only GMT. Nothing but GMT>
[22:01:04] norc: And yes, I used GMT on purpose.
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[22:16:04] Ox0dea: >> "\M-\C-a".size
[22:16:05] ruby[bot]: Ox0dea: # => 1 (https://eval.in/534430)
[22:16:31] Ox0dea: But no analogous character literal. :/
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[22:28:29] norc: Ox0dea, so I just started the long road to write my own complete compiler toolset for experience sake. :)
[22:28:54] norc: ACTION is done trying to reverse engineer how Ruby works without really understanding much about it
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[22:43:26] riceandbeans: anyone happen to know how to get current timezone identifier?
[22:43:34] riceandbeans: I'm not seeing the method in rdoc
[22:43:54] riceandbeans: I mean, if the object already exists yeah, but if you want to just say, what is current timezone identifier on current running system
[22:44:16] riceandbeans: http://www.rubydoc.info/gems/tzinfo/1.2.2/TZInfo/TimezoneInfo#identifier-instance_method
[22:44:26] riceandbeans: requires you to create the object with the identifier first
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[22:53:36] Ox0dea: norc: Well, darn. But also yay! :)
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[23:04:53] bjpenn: im reading the ruby standard library doc @ ruby-doc.org/stdlib-2.3.0/
[23:05:08] bjpenn: but it doesnt have "load" anywhere
[23:05:19] bjpenn: is it because the documentation overlooked it?
[23:05:24] bjpenn: is it because load is not part of the std library?
[23:05:35] bjpenn: trying to figure out what to read to understand this ruby code :p
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[23:06:32] bjpenn: infact a lot of links are broken on that site
[23:07:06] eam: bjpenn: the stdlib is a set of standard modules, load is part of ruby core
[23:07:07] eam: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.2.3/Kernel.html
[23:07:23] eam: similar to how C's stdlib is not actually part of the core C system
[23:08:02] bjpenn: i didnt realize that :p
[23:08:12] bjpenn: i thought "stdlib" is basically all the stuff that comes standard with ruby
[23:08:15] bjpenn: kind of like the java standard library
[23:08:33] bjpenn: or the python standard library
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[23:10:35] eam: bjpenn: well, it'd be like the java standard library vs java.lang
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[23:15:16] Ox0dea: bjpenn: Python also makes a distinction between standard libraries and built-ins.
[23:15:48] Ox0dea: Kernel#load is similar in that respect to, say, Python's len() function.
[23:16:11] Ox0dea: Whether one of them makes considerably more sense than the other is none of my business. :P
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[23:32:02] darix: bjpenn: even in java you have a difference there
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