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#ruby - 22 July 2016

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[00:00:02] killerkamel: has joined #ruby
[00:00:20] bleep: To clarify, it works fine over console, it's just the RubyMine config that throws an error
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[00:13:47] bleep: is it seriously 2016 and there's not a way to tell google to not ignore punctuation in searches?
[00:13:50] chipotle_: has joined #ruby
[00:14:29] havenwood: bleep: http://symbolhound.com
[00:14:47] bleep: havenwood: god bless you
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[00:23:55] Talltree: wondering what linux distro you guys use to host your stuff, or do you use cloud services with premade installations etc?
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[00:28:50] havenwood: Talltree: Arch Linux and Fedora are two of the GNU/Linux distros that have nice, up-to-date Ruby packages. Folk use all sorts of other Linux distros. FreeBSD or OpenBSD are popular with some circles of Rubyists as well.
[00:29:26] Mirubiri: Arch Linux is very popular
[00:29:26] bougyman: no one has a more recent ruby than void linux
[00:29:36] bougyman: no one has more recent * than void linux, really
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[00:29:49] Talltree: i use arch at home, but i didnt know its popular as a server
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[00:30:05] Mirubiri: no, not as a server
[00:30:08] bougyman: arch doesn't belong on a prod server.
[00:30:15] Talltree: thats what i think too ;)
[00:30:26] Talltree: Fedora for the server maybe
[00:30:26] bougyman: not since they went systemd, anyway.
[00:30:34] bougyman: fedora's systemd now, too.
[00:30:40] Talltree: i use debian for now on my server...
[00:30:47] Mirubiri: redhat, debian... clasics
[00:30:57] Talltree: debian uses ancient packages
[00:31:02] Mirubiri: ubuntu server...
[00:31:06] bougyman: s/ancient/stable/
[00:31:34] Talltree: idk why but debian is just way too slow with updating
[00:31:58] Talltree: arch on the other hand is way too fast :D
[00:32:10] Mirubiri: who cares, at the end you install what you need
[00:32:12] bougyman: debian is stable, arch is fragile.
[00:32:41] Talltree: fedora seems to be the middle of those
[00:33:00] lupine: ACTION has spent 8 years deploying ruby to debian stable
[00:33:13] lupine: kinda fun, kinda not
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[00:33:24] Talltree: like i said, debian stable is what i run atm
[00:33:26] Talltree: so its possible
[00:33:26] lupine: our newest stuff is jessie/2.1
[00:33:37] lupine: the new job is just moving to 2.3 :D
[00:33:40] Talltree: but still, i would like to have a server thats not ancient :D
[00:33:50] Talltree: moved to 2.3 and it was a PAIN
[00:33:55] lupine: (most of the stuff at oldjob is 1.9)
[00:34:07] lupine: I think I killed all the 1.8 stuff, eventually
[00:34:16] Mirubiri: lupine: how is doing docker in debian for ruby deployments?
[00:34:28] lupine: Mirubiri: dunno, I've never really touched docker
[00:34:30] havenwood: Talltree: Brightbox maintains nice, up-to-date Ruby packages for Ubuntu: https://www.brightbox.com/docs/ruby/ubuntu/
[00:34:40] lupine: there's a package, I can't say any more or less than that
[00:35:07] lupine: packager.io is an interesting approach for ruby applications - vendors in a ruby, and all the gems, but it's good for deployment pipelines
[00:35:14] Talltree: but still, some dependencies where a total clusterf****
[00:35:20] lupine: github.com/crohr/pkgr or so is where the code hides
[00:35:25] Mirubiri: I switched from RVM to rbenv
[00:35:34] lupine: (leans heavily on heroku buildpacks)
[00:36:11] Talltree: sadly heroku and the likes are still way more expensive as a simple vroot for my stuff Oo
[00:36:19] havenwood: I switched from RVM to rbenv to rbfu to chruby.
[00:36:40] lupine: right, pkgr is how you get heroku-ish deployment without heroku
[00:36:58] lupine: I guess docker is saner when you get down to that level of vendoring stuff in
[00:37:08] Mirubiri: havenwood: i feel chruby like nothing
[00:37:09] Talltree: what does docker too?
[00:37:20] Talltree: english 404
[00:37:23] Mirubiri: i like something that lies in between rvm and chruby
[00:37:40] lupine: chruby + ruby-install + bundle install --path=...
[00:37:59] lupine: great for development. keep it far away from production
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[00:38:03] lupine: far, far away
[00:38:03] gizmore: wtf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9skEtl7x-o (starcraft II rap musich video) (UNRELATED)
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[00:38:19] zacts: lupine: I use chruby without ruby-install
[00:38:26] zacts: I manually install my rubies into .rubies
[00:38:31] zacts: ~/.rubies that is
[00:38:31] bougyman: I've been production with rvm for years.
[00:38:35] bougyman: works great.
[00:38:48] bougyman: before that, we did one user per application with a ruby in --prefix=$HOME
[00:38:49] zacts: I didn't like the previous version of rvm
[00:39:01] zacts: so I ended up with alternatives
[00:39:05] lupine: I would not countenance any of these methods :D
[00:39:07] zacts: which is what I still use now
[00:39:11] lupine: seriously, do look at pkgr
[00:39:26] zacts: the shell script source of previous rvm's was scary to me
[00:39:40] bougyman: there's nothing to fear from shell.
[00:39:53] lupine: gitlab uses omnibus, which is vaguely equivalent if you happen to have piles of chef, I guess
[00:40:08] lupine: for hobbyist stuff, it barely matters
[00:40:11] zacts: bougyman: perhaps not inherently
[00:40:19] havenwood: if you don't have a package manager with a modern Ruby you can do a /usr/local/ install with ruby-install: sudo ruby-install --system --latest ruby
[00:40:24] zacts: lupine: It matters if your are nerdy enough
[00:40:40] lupine: havenwood: no no no no no no no :p
[00:40:41] zacts: regardless: x versus y discussion is kind of boring me now
[00:40:51] bougyman: use what works for you.
[00:40:54] lupine: repeatability is what you're aiming for
[00:40:56] bougyman: and don't tell other people what to use.
[00:41:01] lupine: or should be
[00:41:26] zacts: bougyman: unless that something is emacs or vim
[00:41:30] zacts: (kidding kidding)
[00:41:46] bougyman: I hear you, but you also raised some exceptions.
[00:41:47] zacts: (and now Atom.io)
[00:41:55] bougyman: if someone on my team used nano for editing, for instance.
[00:41:59] bougyman: I'd have to question that.
[00:42:06] zacts: nano? what is nano?
[00:42:06] lupine: bougyman: how about gedit?
[00:42:15] bougyman: lupine: gedit might be capable?
[00:42:17] zacts: I use mg or nvi for that
[00:42:21] bougyman: I dunno, haven't looked at it in forever.
[00:42:28] zacts: anyway, back to #ruby
[00:42:31] bougyman: if they're productive, I don't give a shit.
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[00:44:19] Mirubiri: vim.. i have to revisit it
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[00:45:44] Talltree: switching between files is quite annoying on vim i think
[00:46:00] bougyman: it's easy, with or without ctrlspace.
[00:46:01] Talltree: maybe i'm just a noob ;)
[00:46:04] bougyman: with ctrlspace it's just easier.
[00:46:09] Mirubiri: I stopped using it cause I put myself in auto mode
[00:46:21] Mirubiri: bad for development
[00:46:56] Talltree: never taking about the hand from the keyboard is so nice. remembering so many shortcuts isnt tho.
[00:47:07] Talltree: my english today is so bad
[00:47:13] Talltree: *taking away
[00:47:30] Mirubiri: Talltree: at the end you are pretty damn fast with vim
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[00:48:19] Talltree: yeah, but sublime and atom have so many pretty features ... idk, i will learn more vim but not primarily
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[00:48:50] Talltree: also i'm a bit confused about the subversions of vim
[00:49:05] Talltree: there seem to be mutible "updated" vims out there
[00:49:19] Mirubiri: Talltree: if you want to learn more vim activate the vintage mode in sublime
[00:49:30] Mirubiri: is quite similar
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[00:51:06] Mirubiri: deactivate it when you get annoyed lol
[00:52:36] Talltree: dont activate it got cha Mirubiri
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[00:54:34] Mirubiri: but seriously, once you spent some time with vim is easy to fall in love
[00:56:04] Mirubiri: the main advantage is that you save on mouse batteries!
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[00:58:23] Nilium: ACTION dropped Sublime for vim just because vim's easier to use.
[01:00:30] Nilium: Macros in Sublime are wonky, everything useful requires me to hold down a bunch of modifier keys to do, it's generally just a pain to get anything that isn't basic text editing done in Sublime.
[01:00:45] Nilium: Which isn't to say that someone else will have the same reaction.
[01:00:45] Mirubiri: yeah, that's right
[01:01:59] Mirubiri: shortcuts hell is sublime is his big disadvantage
[01:02:20] Talltree: i like autocomplete
[01:02:27] Talltree: anything autocomplete saves me tons of time
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[01:02:59] Nilium: On the other hand, someone using Sublime might not like vim because it can take a while to get used to jumping around code in it and figuring out how things like :g/foo/norm! f:fylciwblobbo works
[01:03:14] Mirubiri: Talltree: YouCompleteMe for VIM
[01:03:19] Mirubiri: and you got it
[01:03:27] Nilium: ACTION removed neocomplete and YouCompleteMe
[01:03:30] Nilium: They slowed things down too much.
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[01:03:43] nebg: is there a ruby equivalent of the python module called "scapy" ?
[01:03:58] Nilium: What does it do?
[01:04:13] Nilium: Or what are you doing with it?
[01:04:26] Mirubiri: yeah Nilium but that keywords in vim have a meaning they are not some random key combinations
[01:04:43] Nilium: Mirubiri: I know. That wasn't a random key combination, either.
[01:05:05] Nilium: Although it is a silly one.
[01:05:30] Mirubiri: I was talking about Sublime
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[01:05:41] Mirubiri: and emacs maybe?
[01:05:51] Mirubiri: it uses shortcuts too isn't it?
[01:06:04] Nilium: I've only used emacs with evil, but it's closer to Sublime.
[01:06:37] Nilium: Some of the normal bindings in emacs make sense, others you would never find if someone didn't tell you they existed (or you had one of the key helpers)
[01:07:05] nebg: Nilium, packet manipulation
[01:08:00] Nilium: https://www.google.com/search?q=ruby+packet+manipulation ← Any of these?
[01:09:50] al2o3-cr: nebg: packetfu is probably your best bet
[01:10:01] Mirubiri: Nilium: one of the features I like from sublime text is package manager is far way better than vim ones
[01:10:26] Nilium: I removed package control a while ago. Bugged me that it tried to auto-install updates.
[01:10:42] Nilium: Which is also part of why I like pathogen in vim.
[01:10:47] al2o3-cr: nebg: or racket
[01:10:54] Nilium: It's dumb enough to do its job and nothing else.
[01:11:03] Mirubiri: Nilium: you are a minimalist
[01:11:38] Nilium: I wrote an embeddable filesystem today, so according to my friends, I'm also crazy.
[01:11:38] Mirubiri: that kind of people who create pragmatic things lol
[01:12:27] LoneHerm_: has joined #ruby
[01:12:52] Mirubiri: I don't know anything related to OS/Filesystems design
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[01:13:13] Nilium: Anyway, in terms of editors, the point isn't really that one is better than the other. You should use what you like and are productive in.
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[01:13:38] Mirubiri: I was more productive with vi
[01:14:00] Nilium: You might enjoy reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P_(protocol) if you're not familiar with that stuff. I feel like it's a pretty approachable way to build a filesystem.
[01:14:27] Nilium: Well, read that and then the 9p.cat-v.org stuff and so on and so forth.
[01:14:54] nebg: is ruby really much slower than python in general ?
[01:15:15] Nilium: Ruby was beating Python 3 in microbenchmarks for a while, but generally it doesn't matter.
[01:15:37] Nilium: They're fairly close together these days, if I remember right, though it depends on the implementation of each.
[01:15:47] nebg: Nilium, yeah right
[01:15:58] nebg: thanks al2o3-cr
[01:16:18] Mirubiri: Nilium: that kind of stuff is very obscure for me
[01:16:27] Nilium: Your code isn't a microbenchmark, so whether X is faster than Y is going to mostly come down to how you build things.
[01:17:22] Nilium: 9p is probably obscure in the sense that it's part of Plan 9 and therefore mostly dead, but the protocol still gets supported, so it's handy to know. Maybe.
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[01:18:32] Nilium: Though it's probably harder to wrap your head around it if you've never put time into that.
[01:19:30] Nilium: Either way, might be fun to learn about. Don't know.
[01:19:46] Mirubiri: the last thing related to filesystems I've read about was IFPS
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[01:20:11] Mirubiri: or IPFS i dunno how is
[01:20:38] Mirubiri: interesting project
[01:21:09] Nilium: Its own description seems fairly hyperbolic.
[01:21:21] Mirubiri: add quantum computing to the mixin and the world explodes lol
[01:22:31] Mirubiri: yes, is a p2p network at the end
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[01:23:28] Nilium: Also seems like it's just trying to be a bigger camlistore, almost.
[01:23:30] Mirubiri: but I think is worth keep an eye, it is not the first time people try to make an standard from something similar
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[01:24:42] Mirubiri: camlistore never head about it
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[01:25:40] Almoullim: So, I wanted to learn either Python or Ruby, I've done alot of research and I couldn't make a decision so i decided to learn the basics of both, i just finished Python, and now I'm learning Ruby... Anyway;
[01:26:13] Almoullim: While i was reading the watching stuff about Ruby i came acoss several people that generaly said that ruby is all about rails
[01:26:21] Mirubiri: Almoullim: what is your field?
[01:26:27] Nilium: Considering I've never used rails, I would ignore them.
[01:26:38] Almoullim: like some video i watched said that Ruby exist to only to serve Rails
[01:26:42] Almoullim: is that the case
[01:26:46] Nilium: Well, that's just silly.
[01:26:58] Nilium: That'd be like saying Python is only for django.
[01:27:09] Mirubiri: or web for porn
[01:27:14] Mirubiri: well that maybe true...
[01:27:33] Nilium: Anyway, Ruby is a general purpose scripting language. I use it to write tools.
[01:27:59] Nilium: Other folks might use it to build websites, but they're generally less interesting and tend to be focused on whether or not a button is round and blue enough.
[01:28:12] bougyman: Ruby is a general purpose language.
[01:28:16] bougyman: notice the period.
[01:28:31] Almoullim: Yes, well both languages are almost the same, Ruby seems easier to pickup, but really, the exact same...
[01:28:37] bougyman: Nilium: what are some of the "biggest" sites you use?
[01:28:39] Mirubiri: Almoullim: ruby became wide popular because of rails, and that's all
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[01:28:57] bougyman: Almoullim: I hate hearing that.
[01:29:01] Mirubiri: don't overthink about that
[01:29:09] Mirubiri: is what it is
[01:29:11] Nilium: bougyman: Don't know, the list of sites you can visit over gopher is kind of shrinking
[01:29:21] bougyman: rails is in many ways contradicts ruby.
[01:29:50] Almoullim: Right, thanks for the clarification (i might spelled that wrong) :)
[01:30:12] Nilium: To clarify, plenty of sites I visit are built on Rails. I just don't care for Rails.
[01:30:30] Nilium: I think it made the Ruby community generally less nice.
[01:30:34] bougyman: but don't judge ruby on rails.
[01:30:37] Mirubiri: maybe rails is best paid?
[01:30:44] bougyman: no, not even close.
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[01:30:54] Nilium: Ruby's great, just ignore rails.
[01:30:58] bougyman: anyone I know doing chef work is paid more than the people I know who rails for a living.
[01:31:59] bougyman: whatever you want to title it.
[01:32:02] bougyman: they write ruby for a living.
[01:32:09] Almoullim: ACTION Started a war!
[01:32:21] Mirubiri: yeah, that's true
[01:32:40] bougyman: I see no war.
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[01:32:44] bougyman: only a friendly discussion.
[01:33:00] Almoullim: I meant that in a funny way, sorry.
[01:33:04] Mirubiri: Where I live you won't find DevOps related jobs
[01:33:18] bougyman: they don't allow infrastructure automation there?
[01:33:22] bougyman: weird place.
[01:33:49] Mirubiri: nop, the case is that devops profession is still arriving
[01:33:54] Mirubiri: is not well known
[01:34:11] Mirubiri: if you want to work with ruby you have to know rails
[01:34:16] bougyman: just wait. in 5 more years you'll get Continuous Deployments
[01:34:36] Mirubiri: I should be learning it now
[01:34:53] bougyman: I had an interview with a guy who claimed he new ruby last week.
[01:34:59] bougyman: he's been programming rails for 6 years.
[01:35:03] bougyman: I was skeptical.
[01:35:20] bougyman: My first ask to him was to write a script that read from stdin and printed every third word.
[01:35:24] bougyman: he completely froze.
[01:35:35] Mirubiri: bougyman: it's normal
[01:36:11] Mirubiri: Rails people don't read from IO in daily basis
[01:36:27] Nilium: ACTION mostly works in Go, but writes a lot of little side-tools for himself in Ruby.
[01:36:27] bougyman: how can you say you know a language if you don't know how to read from stdin?
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[01:37:00] bougyman: the job wasn't for rails, nor a rails programmer.
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[01:37:08] bougyman: we use ruby for real shit, not webcrap.
[01:37:16] Mirubiri: Then you have to know how to read from IO
[01:37:52] Nilium: Sounds similar to an interviewee who passed through recently who said he knew MySQL but, when asked to write a basic select statement, couldn't do it.
[01:37:54] Mirubiri: bougyman: at the end, if him could learn Rails he is capable of learn ruby
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[01:38:06] bougyman: Mirubiri: possibly.
[01:38:12] bougyman: but the killer was that he said he knew linux.
[01:38:21] Mirubiri: nobody knows linux
[01:38:25] bougyman: so I asked him to show me the most recent kernel logs on my system.
[01:38:31] bougyman: you know: dmesg|tail
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[01:38:46] bougyman: well this guy did the cd /var/log; ls *WHAT THE FUCK?*
[01:38:52] Nilium: Also known as that thing I type compulsively when I don't know what else to check
[01:38:55] bougyman: I put him on a void linux box, it doesn't have a std /var/log
[01:39:13] bougyman: but there _was_ a dmesg.log in there. I think any sane person might have read that.
[01:39:19] bougyman: but this guy decided to `cat wtmp`
[01:39:26] Nilium: Was he looking for the sysl-.. nope, I guess not.
[01:39:29] bougyman: *terminal goes crazy*
[01:39:35] bougyman: interview over.
[01:40:12] Mirubiri: and he saild that he knew linux period?
[01:40:21] bougyman: he said he was an expert in linux
[01:40:31] bougyman: that was right on his resume: Expert in Linux
[01:40:32] Nilium: When you asked for logs, do you think he misunderstood you and went for 'logins'?
[01:40:48] bougyman: Nilium: show me the most recent kernel logins?
[01:40:54] bougyman: no, that doesn't seem plausible.
[01:40:59] Nilium: Suppose not.
[01:41:05] Mirubiri: bougyman: I don't know any expert in smth who calls himself expert
[01:41:13] bougyman: Mirubiri: nor do I.
[01:41:19] bougyman: i've been using vim for 20 years.
[01:41:25] bougyman: i'm novice-intermediate.
[01:41:26] Mirubiri: then why you interviewed him?
[01:41:31] Nilium: I just call myself an idiot so I can be pleasantly surprised when I do anything.
[01:41:38] bougyman: Mirubiri: not my choice. recruiting sets these things up.
[01:41:44] Mirubiri: Oh I see...
[01:41:47] eam: I mean, looking in /var/log for dmesg logs is reasonable
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[01:42:07] bougyman: but if you don't see a kern.log or anything familiar, you might ask a question.
[01:42:09] Nilium: I think the best interview I ever got out of was a guy who submitted a code sample plagiarized from w3schools
[01:42:10] eam: I train people to do that because dmesg isn't timestamped and I'm tired of people going "omg" over something that's a few months old
[01:42:15] eam: bougyman: yeah
[01:42:26] bougyman: of course, anyone who was an 'expert in linux' would have just dmesg|tail and not even had to root around in /var/log
[01:43:04] Mirubiri: or anyone who read a single Linux Administration book...
[01:43:09] Nilium: Some dmesg implementations have timestamps, thankfully.
[01:43:18] Mirubiri: it is one of the first things you learn
[01:43:21] bougyman: mine does, Nilium
[01:43:31] bougyman: but alas, he never saw it.
[01:43:42] Nilium: Pretty sure most of the debians do, but not really important
[01:43:42] bougyman: just blinky binary all over the screen after the cat wtmp
[01:43:43] Mirubiri: and how to do aliases...
[01:43:55] Nilium: Think I'll go heat up leftovers
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[01:44:21] bougyman: I've handed many interviewees my laptop before. none have every farked a terminal.
[01:44:44] eam: well, as long as they know how to fix it ...
[01:44:54] bougyman: he didn't know 'reset', either.
[01:45:52] Mirubiri: maybe 'clear'?
[01:46:07] eam: nah, clear won't help
[01:46:13] eam: reset or stty sane will
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[01:46:23] eam: (sometimes)
[01:46:59] al2o3-cr: journalctl -k | tail ftw
[01:47:10] eam: systemd = fired
[01:47:13] eam: no culture fit
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[01:47:56] Mirubiri: oh no, stop telling commands I can't resist to read its docs now...
[01:48:05] al2o3-cr: least it guarantees timestamps
[01:48:16] eam: al2o3-cr: no it doesn't
[01:48:25] eam: dmesg is a kernel thing independent of systemd
[01:49:48] al2o3-cr: no timestamps from dmesg on my box
[01:51:04] Nilium: I know I don't get timestamps, but I run BSD stuff.
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[01:51:29] eam: the kernel would need to record the time, which didn't used to be done. I think linux started doing it in 3.x maybe?
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[01:51:58] eam: iirc it's an offset rather than a timestamp, dmesg can convert that when displaying them
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[01:52:17] bougyman: hrm, i' haven't even checked.
[01:52:26] Nilium: Pretty sure that's right.
[01:52:27] bougyman: does dmesg still work on journald/systemd infected systems?
[01:52:32] eam: bougyman: yes
[01:52:48] Nilium: I think it'd have to, but I could be wrong.
[01:52:48] eam: dmesg has to log to the kernel ring buffer before time is established
[01:53:10] bougyman: but the `dmesg` command can inject the proper time.
[01:53:21] eam: yeah it'll do math on now - offset
[01:53:22] Nilium: Totally haven't had the time to learn how to use systemd
[01:53:27] Nilium: I really ought to.
[01:53:33] Mirubiri: bougyman: you are in love with systemd
[01:53:34] eam: I'm kinda hoping it'll just die off
[01:53:34] bougyman: I know how to use it.
[01:53:38] bougyman: doesn't make me want to.
[01:53:50] bougyman: I've been runitted since ~2000
[01:53:54] bougyman: I didn't need a new init.
[01:53:56] Nilium: Yeah. I don't want to use it. I just see it as something I'll inevitably need to do.
[01:54:06] bougyman: I just needed them not to infect the system so much that runit can't be pid1.
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[01:54:23] eam: bougyman: runit 4 life
[01:54:33] bougyman: eam: then why aren't you on void linux yet?
[01:54:39] eam: that's how we're shielding ourselves from the systemd brain damage
[01:54:43] Nilium: runit's nice. sk6 is on my list of things to fiddle with.
[01:54:48] eam: bougyman: I need RHEL for various enterprise crap
[01:54:56] bougyman: eam: I have RHEL runitted.
[01:54:59] Nilium: Yeah, that.
[01:55:00] bougyman: well, up through 6
[01:55:04] bougyman: 7 got infected.
[01:55:20] Nilium: Keep mentally adding the k 'cause of skarnet
[01:55:36] bougyman: s6 got taken over by the docker crows.
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[01:55:49] Nilium: Well, guess it's dead to me now.
[01:55:54] eam: brb in 2h, train time
[01:55:57] bougyman: it went from something simple to something convoluted and spread all over creation.
[01:56:33] bougyman: even laurent still says runit is the simplest complete init system avail.
[01:56:47] Nilium: We actually use runit with docker at work, but that feels wrong.
[01:56:50] bougyman: s6 tries to add helpers and then the whole execlineb mentality.
[01:56:57] bougyman: I initially thought execlineb was cool.
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[01:57:10] bougyman: but there are a lot of drawback of putting everyting into ARGV
[01:57:18] Nilium: I mostly just like the lack of things to do with runit.
[01:57:45] bougyman: I just can't give up the ease of debugging.
[01:58:07] Nilium: I could probably also live with openrc, but haven't actually used it.
[01:58:13] bougyman: Customer: "My service is broken" Me: cd /servic/<brokenshit>; sv d ./; ./run
[01:58:19] Mirubiri: so bougyman is runit the natural step after sysvinit?
[01:58:31] bougyman: or tail /service/<brokenshit>/log/current
[01:58:36] Nilium: I'm at least OK with rc scripts on FreeBSD, so I just assume I'd get along fine with OpenRC.
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[01:58:36] bougyman: probably the tail first.
[01:58:44] bougyman: but the ./run is the most important debugging tool.
[01:58:57] bougyman: you see the view of the process startup just as the supervisor sees it.
[01:59:51] Nilium: I don't think I've ever had to actually write any complicated run scripts.
[01:59:56] bougyman: and you can view the *everything* of a system with tail /service/*/log/current if you choose. but you don't every have to tail /var/log/syslog|grep <myservice>
[02:00:07] Nilium: Tends to just be maybe set an environment variable and then exec.
[02:00:09] bougyman: i've got some pretty hairy run scripts, but they're the serious minority
[02:00:15] bougyman: most are 1-3 lines.
[02:00:31] bougyman: the plurality are just exec chpst ./env <process>
[02:00:40] bougyman: chpst -e, that is.
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[02:01:06] bougyman: Nilium: why u set env vars instead of -e ./env ?
[02:01:11] Nilium: Is the env actually doing anything there?
[02:01:19] Nilium: Oh wait, -e
[02:01:23] Nilium: Ignore me.
[02:01:24] bougyman: every file in ./env sets an envvar.
[02:01:31] bougyman: np, I messed up on the command.
[02:01:48] Nilium: That's pretty much what I'm referring to.
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[02:02:32] bougyman: for ruby stuff, we have the rvm env setup at the top (1-2 lines)
[02:02:52] bougyman: I hear a lot of people say they have rvm nightmares in production.
[02:02:56] bougyman: I just assume they don't use runit.
[02:03:14] bougyman: we've never had an issue.
[02:04:07] Nilium: I don't think we have anything running ruby like that, but it's been handy, unfortunately, for running php.
[02:04:19] bougyman: it's handy for many things.
[02:04:34] bougyman: I had a greybeard at the job who hated when I brought runit in.
[02:04:42] bougyman: he often said I used it as a hammer looking for a nail.
[02:04:44] bougyman: he's a believer now.
[02:04:54] Nilium: PHP has this unfortunate tendency to ruin itself on a regular basis. runit makes that mostly not an issue.
[02:05:02] bougyman: he wrote about 400 LoC with locks and mechanisms to make sure his script didn't run more than once at a time.
[02:05:12] bougyman: I removed it all and moved it into runit supervision.
[02:05:38] Nilium: I was just glad when I replaced supervisord with runit.
[02:05:45] Nilium: Really did not like supervisord...
[02:05:55] bougyman: i've never used it.
[02:06:01] bougyman: daemontools, runit, and s6
[02:06:15] bougyman: and of course sysV and systemd.
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[02:06:30] Nilium: It's some Python thing, if I remember right. Only understands its own config files, so trying to make it do things the way you want is tricky.
[02:06:34] bougyman: of them all, sysV is the least capable, but I hate systemd most.
[02:06:42] bougyman: dinner time 4 me
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[02:06:53] Nilium: Always a good idea.
[02:07:18] Mirubiri: a good book for learning about Linux Admin?
[02:07:27] Mirubiri: I'm curious now :\
[02:07:42] Nilium: No idea. I'm not a sysadmin, I just occasionally do things.
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[02:08:23] Mirubiri: more occasionally in my case
[02:08:53] Talltree: sometimes i think you get some backlash for just doing this as a hobby for now
[02:08:54] Mirubiri: but not having a solid foundation in Linux Admin is a huge source of problems
[02:09:24] Talltree: as i try to learn ruby and rails and everything in my free time to try to get into the field at a later piont..
[02:09:30] Nilium: I think most of what I learned was partly using slackware growing up and partly just out of necessity for work.
[02:09:59] Nilium: And the slackware stuff would be the smaller part of that.
[02:10:18] Mirubiri: Nilium: The first time I used linux at work was because Rails
[02:10:34] Mirubiri: before that it was only a little hobby for me
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[02:10:49] Mirubiri: breaking distros and reinstall i mean...
[02:11:06] Mirubiri: the virtualization arrived and i was happier
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[02:14:20] Talltree: i dunno how many times i reset my VM to get gentoo running...
[02:14:30] Nilium: I guess you could go read the FreeBSD handbook or something if you wanted to learn some stuff, but that's obviously BSD and not Linux. Gentoo's probably still a good distro to learn things from just by doing a stage 1 or 2 install, but I don't know if they still do that.
[02:15:40] Nilium: Don't know. I don't know what to suggest for learning things other than immersion.
[02:16:09] Mirubiri: Amazon will have the answer
[02:16:11] Talltree: arch has pretty much the same install
[02:16:28] Talltree: much father because its not compiling everything
[02:16:35] Mirubiri: I'm downloading void right now
[02:17:01] Nilium: If Abebooks is available in your country, you might want to try that.
[02:17:40] Talltree: i never got BSD stuff, too complicated not enough profit afaik
[02:18:09] Nilium: I think it tends to be simpler.
[02:18:20] Nilium: Simple, well-documented, very clean
[02:18:31] Nilium: It's kind of like what Slackware was to me.
[02:18:34] Mirubiri: abebooks ok
[02:19:05] Talltree: i'm trying around with fedora right now, but the only difference is the package manager i guess
[02:19:09] Talltree: so its not really difficult
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[02:19:17] Talltree: from debian to fedora
[02:19:38] Mirubiri: I don't think linux administration is much diferent among different linux flavors
[02:20:16] Talltree: at home arch is just amazing...
[02:20:25] Talltree: i wish there was something like i3 for windows
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[02:22:10] Talltree: i just seem to be too stupid to configure ntp properly :D
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[02:46:50] zacts: Nilium: I like Slackware
[02:47:49] Nilium: Most people who've used Slackware like Slackware, but from a distance because it's 2016 now.
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[02:48:48] zacts: Nilium: yeah, but 14.2 just got released
[02:49:18] Nilium: I might actually give that a go
[02:50:23] Nilium: I'd just about written it off as dead after so long
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[02:53:42] Talltree: i thought slackware was a term meaning just bad software, someone slacked
[02:53:51] Talltree: but its actually a distro....
[02:54:21] Nilium: It's one of the oldest.
[02:54:46] Nilium: People make jokes about Gentoo because they forget to make jokes about Slackware.
[02:55:11] Talltree: part of it is because of envy :D
[02:55:42] zacts: so at what point should one be concerned with OOP design patterns?
[02:56:10] al2o3-cr: i used slackware once. think it was backtrack 3
[02:57:07] Talltree: what GUI ships with slackware?
[02:57:17] Talltree: or does it even ship any?
[02:57:24] Talltree: 2.6 gb image seems huge
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[02:58:15] Nilium: I mean, in terms of what it _ships_ with, xfce, gnome, KDE, I think..
[02:58:37] Nilium: Pretty sure fluxbox made it in by at least 2005 but it's been a while since I cared.
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[03:02:57] Talltree: what about GNU, read about gNewSense and that seems pretty unusable
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[03:04:53] Nilium: What about what?
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[03:06:38] zacts: Talltree: for fsf distros there is one I'm personally interested in that is Slackware-esque
[03:06:42] zacts: http://dragora.org
[03:06:47] zacts: but it's in development
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[03:10:05] Mirubiri: you have to know design patterns
[03:10:45] Mirubiri: and i'm not saying you have to use it everywhere
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[03:14:53] Talltree: Mirubiri: i dont really get what you mean by that
[03:15:27] Talltree: rails follows conventions over configuration
[03:15:40] Mirubiri: I'm saying that being a kind of design patterns taliban is not good for your code
[03:15:53] Talltree: so isnt anything you do in rails automaticly OOP ?
[03:16:12] Talltree: or, rather close to it
[03:16:32] Mirubiri: Talltree no
[03:16:59] Talltree: then i'm sure i produce the most messiest sh't ever
[03:17:04] Mirubiri: that is not a reason to say you did a good oop design
[03:17:31] Talltree: idk, have to read more about that i suppose
[03:17:43] Mirubiri: you can develop in any strict object oriented language
[03:17:57] Mirubiri: but it doesn't mean you do good oop designs
[03:18:05] elomatreb: Rubys libraries encourage good design, I have seen way less *terrible* code in Ruby than in other languages
[03:18:06] Mirubiri: it only means that you are working with an OOP language
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[03:19:34] Mirubiri: elomatreb: it depends, but yeah the ruby community likes good code desing and strieve for it
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[03:20:36] Mirubiri: I have just finish reading Sandy Metz new beta book
[03:20:53] Mirubiri: and its great
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[03:21:19] Mirubiri: I recommend it
[03:21:46] Mirubiri: both of them
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[03:35:58] zacts: so what will design patterns actually help me with
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[03:36:48] zacts: like if I read poodr, what would deisgn patterns add to this?
[03:38:22] Mirubiri: zacts design patterns help you to organize your code better and to reach higher levels of abstraction
[03:38:24] elomatreb: zacts: If you're just building small scripts/applications, not so much. But once you build large applications and/or work with other devs, they're invaluable
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[03:38:59] zacts: elomatreb: so like do rails apps often utilize design patterns?
[03:39:29] Mirubiri: zacts: well done ones yes
[03:39:40] zacts: that gives me an idea
[03:39:58] zacts: I'm not at that point yet, but I'll get there probably after learning some rails
[03:39:59] elomatreb: zacts: One of the benefits of Rails is that it gives you a standardized set of design patterns to build your application
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[03:40:22] elomatreb: Splitting your app into Models, Views, and Controllers is one for example
[03:40:36] elomatreb: albeit a very basic one
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[03:40:46] Mirubiri: yes, but you can mess it all, because your are kind of filling that patterns with your sh...
[03:40:56] Mirubiri: that's the trap
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[03:42:04] ProofTechnique: Design patterns don't make code good, they're just recognized ways to solve problems. If your problem fits a pattern nicely, you can get a lot of expressiveness and reusability, but if you force it then you'll just end up with a mess, anyway
[03:42:41] Mirubiri: yeah, they are a doubled edged weapon...
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[03:43:11] elomatreb: Keep in mind that there isn't a limited set of patterns that some ancient programmer invented
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[03:45:44] zacts: kind of like how knowing all the rules of English grammar won't make you a good writer of English
[03:46:06] Nilium: My English degree is evidence of this.
[03:46:06] zacts: but grammar can be good to know
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[03:47:32] Ropeney: "can be good"
[03:47:38] zacts: Nilium: quick what is grammar rule #347?
[03:47:49] Nilium: Always be beeping.
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[03:49:02] Nilium: Wait, no, that's how to get a job.
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[03:49:39] elomatreb: Sir, you are in violation of grammar rule #275. Please step away from the keyboard
[03:50:45] Nilium: http://66.media.tumblr.com/eccb691f94c7ac141176082157247f83/tumblr_inline_nxrk6gnUjO1rf2gbc_500.gif ← Courtesy of birdcheese.
[03:51:20] Mirubiri: I have to improve my english too
[03:51:29] elomatreb: That's what I've been doing wrong. Not enough socks!
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[03:51:48] Nilium: It's so easy to overlook.
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[03:52:00] Talltree: there is a gem that checks rails code for non "normal" designs and reports mishaps
[03:52:09] Talltree: dunno anymore what its called
[03:52:24] Nilium: Gasoline and matches?
[03:52:37] zacts: I'm going to add a gem to code ruby in ancient "attic" Greek
[03:52:41] zacts: using UTF-8
[03:52:43] Mirubiri: Talltree: an static code analyzer?
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[04:01:19] Talltree: Mirubiri: https://github.com/bbatsov/rubocop#cops
[04:02:21] Mirubiri: but if you were talking about code quality...
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[04:06:47] Mirubiri: I don't like complexity metrix, they often lie
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[05:01:36] dhollinger: I must be blind in my searches. Is there a way in a Gemfile to ONLY install gems if ruby version is >= 2.0
[05:02:39] Ropeney: dhollinger: second google result http://bundler.io/v1.5/gemfile.html
[05:03:32] Ropeney: oh greater or equal then?
[05:04:05] Ropeney: dhollinger, looks like you can't https://github.com/bundler/bundler/issues/2845
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[05:05:38] elomatreb: Do you want to install some specific gem if your version requirement is meant and all the other gems regardless of that requirement?
[05:05:42] acchan: has joined #ruby
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[05:06:10] elomatreb: Or do you want bundler to fail instantly if your version requirement is not met?
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[05:07:27] dhollinger: elomatreb: I have a pair of gems that I only use for deployments that aren't available in ruby 1.9 (one of the test environments). So I really don't need them installed during a travis build. I think I'l just use a bundler group
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[05:08:02] elomatreb: dhollinger: Maybe useful in that case: http://bundler.io/v1.3/man/gemfile.5.html#PLATFORMS-platforms-
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[05:09:47] elomatreb: dhollinger: But I have to ask, why are you using these old Ruby versions? Neither 1.9, nor 2.0 still receive any support
[05:10:06] dhollinger: It's for puppet module support
[05:10:21] dhollinger: Puppet 3.x still uses ruby 1.9 (as do RHEL based linux systems)
[05:10:54] dhollinger: Otherwise, I'd love to drop Ruby 1.9 in my tests, but unfortunately too many people still use older versions of puppet
[05:11:22] elomatreb: Well, in that case: Good luck
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[05:14:14] acchan: anyone got a clue of what I'm doing wrong here: http://pastebin.com/ahL1agHR
[05:14:16] ruby[bot]: acchan: we in #ruby do not like pastebin.com, I reposted your paste to gist for you: https://gist.github.com/328766c74b20733faafac476f3a7a5fc
[05:14:16] ruby[bot]: acchan: pastebin.com loads slowly for most, has ads which are distracting and has terrible formatting.
[05:14:21] dhollinger: created a group in Gemfile and put the gems in that group. Modified Rakefile to only load those libraries if they are defined. Tests run in 1.9.3 now
[05:15:12] acchan: getting undenfined method even though it's defined
[05:16:34] acchan: this is from the Rails course on Coursera
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[05:31:40] Mirubiri: acchan: could you move the method definition before everything else and try again?
[05:32:01] Mirubiri: after the include...
[05:40:01] Mirubiri: oh acchan don't try that
[05:40:32] Mirubiri: you are defining a module named Coursera somewhere and trying to access to the method #for in that module
[05:40:48] Mirubiri: check your namespaces
[05:42:02] Mirubiri: try calling it in this way ::Coursera.for()
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[05:53:53] shevy: zacts hah, I also like slackware. In fact I have it installed right now... though I compile from source via ruby scripts
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[06:56:19] shevy: hmm I have some password protected .rar files
[06:56:41] shevy: I know the password, so I can manually open them, but there are many of them, is there a way to batch-extract them via ruby? if I could feed in the password
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[07:01:48] shevy: the help option shows it
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[07:11:54] shevy: 123.digits
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[07:16:14] dminuoso: acchan: !rubyonrails
[07:16:17] dminuoso: acchan: ?rubyonrails
[07:16:25] dminuoso: ?rubyonrails
[07:16:25] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: I don't know anything about rubyonrails
[07:16:27] ruby[bot]: Please join #RubyOnRails for Rails questions. You need to be identified with NickServ, see /msg NickServ HELP
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[07:26:51] zacts: shevy: yeah slackware is pretty snazzy
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[07:44:01] shevy: good old virtues
[07:44:05] shevy: like to not get into your way
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[07:44:40] surrounder: yay slackware
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[08:12:32] zacts: 14.1 -> 14.2 timeframe really shows how well they slack, but 14.2 is stable now
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[08:30:21] ziyan_: hello... i got a question about making gems. Now in java we got namespacing like com.jdeen.blah-blah-black-sheep for a project. But in Ruby packages it seems to be just 'blah-blah-black-sheep'. Is it a bad idea if I do a namespace. For example a gem like `jdeen-blah_blah_black_sheep` vs `blah_blah_black_sheep` is it a bad idea?
[08:30:41] ziyan_: Is there a possibility of conflict?
[08:31:54] ziyan_: For example can a file in one gem conflict with another (probably not a practical issue, just curious)
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[08:32:34] shevy: ziyan_ this is in general how ruby works
[08:32:54] shevy: whoever is the first to define a top-level constant, such as a module or a class, wins in the sense of defining that namespace
[08:33:07] shevy: like if someone adds: module Configuration; end and then in your code you try to do: class Configuration; end
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[08:33:26] shevy: ruby will issue an error
[08:33:38] shevy: like "TypeError: Foo is not a class"
[08:34:28] ziyan_: cool, thanks
[08:34:32] toretore: ziyan_: gem names are all in the same namespace, and their names determine the namespace used in the code, thus if your gem name is unique, it's likely that your code namespacing will also be unique
[08:34:42] shevy: you can get rid of it perhaps if you really need to, like via: Object.send :remove_const, :Foo
[08:35:31] toretore: ziyan_: http://guides.rubygems.org/name-your-gem/ for naming practices
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[08:38:01] ziyan_: toretore: thanks, ya was reading the guides and thus wondering. thanks for the info.
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[08:38:17] ziyan_: shevy: thanks, noted, hopefully not needing to use
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[09:13:02] jlebrech: I want to write a string to file and that file not be in git, is there an alternative ruby-ist way to gitignore that file?
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[09:15:14] jackdan: jlebrech: what do you mean with ruby-ist?
[09:15:33] jackdan: you just put the filename in gitignore
[09:15:48] jlebrech: yeah that's the simplest way :D
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[09:16:44] dminuoso_: jlebrech: There is also int remove(const char *path)
[09:16:54] dminuoso_: Very useful feature to prevent files from appearing in git.
[09:16:55] jlebrech: for example theres TempFile, just wondering if there was something like tho
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[09:20:59] ruby[bot]: it seems like you are asking for a specific solution to a problem, instead of asking about your problem. This often leads to bad solutions and increases frustration for you and those trying to help you. More: http://meta.stackexchange.com/a/66378
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[10:01:15] shevy: I wanna do: class 1980; end
[10:01:47] shevy: guess I prefix with Y ... still ugly
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[12:49:09] manveru: >> class X; define_method(:'1984'){ 1984 }; end; X.new.send('1984')
[12:49:10] ruby[bot]: manveru: # => 1984 (https://eval.in/610091)
[12:49:40] manveru: no need for the :, but still :)
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[14:29:19] nerium: Was thinking about using refinements in my current lib but can’t find my info about them. Any reason not use to them?
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[14:30:27] Zarthus: they're a bit tedious to use
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[14:30:46] Zarthus: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.1.1/doc/syntax/refinements_rdoc.html is the doc page
[14:30:59] Papierkorb: nerium: For some things tedious, but in general, I much prefer them over some library patching yet another thing into the standard lib
[14:31:15] jhass: http://janlelis.github.io/sugar_refinery/ has some insight as to what makes sense to do with them
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[14:31:49] nerium: Papierkorb: Exactly. Just discovered a but which was introduced using monkey patching. Took me 2h to find so was hioping that refinements would solve this
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[14:33:01] nerium: Zarthus: The overhead looks quite minmal or are you refering to something other then the extra amount of code?
[14:33:17] Zarthus: I'm referring to the headache and annoyance it produces for the programmer :)
[14:33:35] Papierkorb: nerium: I use them over monkey patching wherever possible. A single "using" line above everything else is well worth the hassle for me
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[14:33:58] nerium: Zarthus: I understood that, but exactly is causing this? Number of extra locs?
[14:34:10] Papierkorb: Of course, it can be surprising that suddenly "some method isn't there?!"
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[14:34:31] nerium: Papierkorb: Much rather that then ”who is overriding my method X”?
[14:35:02] Papierkorb: I just recently used a method by accident in production code which is offered by YARD
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[14:35:12] Papierkorb: So, in console, it worked fine, as pry requires 'yard'
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[14:35:48] Papierkorb: but suddenly, the RACK_ENV=production server spit out exceptions. I don't like these kind of surprises
[14:36:03] nerium: Papierkorb: Takes forever to debug
[14:36:33] Zarthus: nerium: no reason in particular, it's just that the extra instructions and checklist to go through
[14:36:43] Papierkorb: if you're unlucky absolutely. Took me a moment to even consider that this method was "new"
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[14:37:12] Zarthus: it just feels like there should be a more ideal solution
[14:37:31] Zarthus: although most languages don't permit overwriting of methods like this to begin with
[14:37:54] nerium: Zarthus: … which results in even more code
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[14:38:29] nerium: Proxy objects would be another, general, solutioin
[14:38:31] Zarthus: I don't care about the quantity of code, I just think refinements are a workaround more than a solution
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[14:39:55] jhass: it's admittedly hard to design a nice API for it though, what'd be your dream API to it?
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[14:40:30] nerium: LOCS <==> bugs
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[14:43:18] Papierkorb: nerium: another solution could be including monkeypatch modules into the singleton_class to only patch certain objects
[14:43:42] Papierkorb: Has the downside that you have to do this all the time, with the upside that the object doesn't "change" from a file to the next one
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[14:45:03] nerium: Papierkorb: Implemented such a solution in javascript as an alt. to refinements. It works but is in the end the same thing as refinements
[14:45:07] jhass: doesn't it still bust method caches for the whole ancestry chain though?
[14:45:41] nerium: jhass: Sounds like a problem in the early stages of the feature
[14:45:51] Papierkorb: jhass: the methods don't suddenly change anymore for that particular object. Don't know what else MRI caches
[14:46:02] nerium: jhass: *should* have been fixed before it got released
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[14:46:25] jhass: I don't mean refinements but doing .extend all the time at runtime
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[14:53:39] glundgren: hey guys, good morning
[14:55:24] glundgren: {:city=>{:person_1=>{:ranking=>1}, :person_2=>{:ranking=>2}}, :city_2 => {{:person_3 => 2}, {:person_4 => 3}}}
[14:55:38] glundgren: how can i sort by the :ranking value?
[14:55:59] glundgren: keeping the city scope
[14:56:06] glundgren: someone can help me with this
[14:56:42] marens: hey there, i'm trying to persist some data as yaml file and followed http://blog.mustmodify.com/pages/psych-ruby-1-9-yaml, so far so good, but it seems that i have to solve question 1 from that link or otherwise another programm doesn't parse the yaml file properly. Any ideas how i can manage to do that?
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[14:57:21] yorickpeterse: glundgren: for starters your syntax is not valid
[14:57:39] glundgren: sorry about that, its just to illustrate didnt checked
[14:58:54] jhass: second relying on the order of a hash is smelly
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[14:59:01] yorickpeterse: Generally you'd use Hash#sort / Hash#sort_by, which spits out an Array, then turn that back into a Hash using Hash.[]
[14:59:18] jhass: Array#to_h you mean :P
[14:59:31] glundgren: im all ears :)
[14:59:35] jhass: I would recommend flattening the outer key into the child hashes
[14:59:36] yorickpeterse: >> Hash[{ a: 2, b: 1 }.sort_by { |key, value| value }]
[14:59:37] ruby[bot]: yorickpeterse: # => {:b=>1, :a=>2} (https://eval.in/610153)
[14:59:42] yorickpeterse: jhass: yeah that also works
[15:00:19] jhass: .map {|k, v| v[:city] = k; v }.sort_by {|city| city[:ranking] }
[15:00:20] glundgren: ok yorick, but this is in the first level of hash, how i do it in a deep level?
[15:00:41] marens: tl; dr how to force psych to emit key: [val1, val2] instead of key: \n-val1 \n-val2 when writing out yaml?
[15:00:47] yorickpeterse: Exactly the same, but you'd have to reconstruct things manually
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[15:01:04] glundgren: mmm i got it, that was my doubt!
[15:01:10] yorickpeterse: You select the part you want to sort, sort it, then re-assign
[15:01:28] glundgren: thanks dude
[15:01:52] Papierkorb: marens: those two are equivalent for YAML.
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[15:01:55] jhass: glundgren: do reconsider your data structure though, the desire to sort it indicates you don't actually every use the keys for key based access
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[15:02:08] marens: Papierkorb: i wish all implementations knew that
[15:02:26] marens: i'm just looking for a workaround to make java happy
[15:02:26] glundgren: actually i have a LOT of stuff using this structure, the client asked to order it, i dont want to rebuild everything
[15:02:34] Papierkorb: marens: Is the target application actually using JSON?
[15:03:03] jhass: glundgren: well, do you ever do foo[:city_2][:person_3]?
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[15:03:29] marens: Papierkorb: nono, it's using org.ho.yaml to parse yaml, and if i change the syntax to the first it's able to parse it :/
[15:04:07] Papierkorb: marens: try feeding it JSON. a compliant YAML parser reads JSON just fine.
[15:04:24] glundgren: actually i use this strutucture to generate pdfs, it kinds of work this way i go thourgh the hash and write a pdf listing all the person inside a city
[15:04:39] glundgren: but now i need to order by this ranking value
[15:04:53] glundgren: every city is a new pdf
[15:05:18] glundgren: and write pdf using prawn isnt the most friendly task...
[15:05:30] marens: Papierkorb: i'd rather have Psych emit the first syntax if that is possible
[15:05:49] Papierkorb: marens: Time to dig its source and docs then I guess
[15:05:50] glundgren: although is very useful
[15:06:38] marens: Papierkorb: well i'm not the most experienced ruby progammer and thus i'm asking in here if anybody already knows how to do that
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[15:07:52] jhass: last released in 2007.... https://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.jyaml/jyaml
[15:08:58] marens: i know i know, it's way harder to change the application compared to changing my little yaml emitter i hope
[15:09:02] jhass: http://jyaml.sourceforge.net/
[15:09:11] jhass: probably not tbh
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[15:12:25] jhass: it's so outdated, not even the link to alternatives works anymore :P
[15:13:30] marens: awesome, isn't it :D
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[15:17:38] mpr555: Hi All - I am so new to programming, I am after advice on where to start with learning Ruby
[15:17:51] Zarthus: i think ruby's own website has some mini tutorial on it
[15:18:04] mpr555: Yeah i have been on there thanks
[15:18:08] marens: i found http://rubykoans.com/ useful
[15:18:47] mpr555: I have got “Learn to Program” - Chris Pine book. and I get to a certain point and i get confused! ha
[15:18:49] jhass: going through http://tryruby.com/ should be fun too
[15:18:59] jhass: the book's good too
[15:19:06] jhass: what are you confused about?
[15:19:35] mpr555: methods, loops, anything past putting “hi” on the screen
[15:19:49] mpr555: not that bad really
[15:19:59] mpr555: when I look at the code, I can understand what it is doing.
[15:20:11] jhass: that ought to be enough for starters :)
[15:20:12] mpr555: but when doing the tasks, my mind melts trying to figure out what to do
[15:20:21] Zarthus: what task are you trying to accomplish?
[15:20:31] mpr555: I look at the code at that back, and think oh yeah that makes sense
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[15:20:37] jhass: ^ share the task and your thoughts about it so far
[15:20:51] jhass: without having looked at a solution yet
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[15:21:24] mustmodify: One of my subcontractors submitted this to get around what he called "a lot of copy and paste." I'm inclined to have him redo it as it doesn't, in my mind, express intent very well... but I thought I'd see what others thought. https://gist.github.com/mustmodify/2c608103ff57421c5047c5e72f575213
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[15:21:41] mpr555: I will be back to do that - I thought I would come here first, and ask where the best place to start was.
[15:21:44] mustmodify: I'm not against meta... just seemed... overboard rescuing.
[15:21:59] croberts: what is the double rescue :: in this example used for URI::InvalidURIError
[15:22:02] mpr555: I literally have no coding experience, apart from very basic html, css, php, mysql - but i do mean basic
[15:22:57] mpr555: Next time I am going through my book again, I will come here and see before looking at solutions
[15:22:57] Papierkorb: the begin/end is redundant in the generated method
[15:23:22] jhass: mustmodify: yeah reads like trying to be smart and failing at it
[15:23:29] jhass: module_eval takes a block
[15:23:29] mpr555: I need a mentor :) ha. Self study for me is hard. i’m more of a teacher student type learner
[15:23:30] Papierkorb: mustmodify: also, looks like it could be done with #define_method and #alias_method just fine without having to use eval
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[15:23:41] jhass: and there's define_method
[15:23:44] mpr555: but thanks for the info so far everyone
[15:23:48] jhass: so need for constructing a string
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[15:24:22] jhass: croberts: the same as everywhere else, namespace resolution
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[15:24:58] jhass: croberts: exception types are just classes, classes are just objects assigned to constants. It's fetching the constant InvalidURIError in the namespace URI
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[15:25:16] mustmodify_: that's weird. I was kicked out.
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[15:25:23] jhass: not yet :P
[15:25:25] mustmodify_: seems like I'm having some kind of internet issue.
[15:25:29] croberts: jhass: thank you :)
[15:25:39] jhass: mustmodify_: say hello to mustmodify
[15:26:06] mustmodify_: yeah, I guess when my connection dropped my client used a new nickname.
[15:26:10] Papierkorb: mustmodify_: TL;DR: jhass and me suggested to use #define_method and #alias_method over using eval(), and that the begin/end in the method are redundant
[15:26:17] ruby[bot]: You can find a log of this channel at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ruby/
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[15:26:39] jhass: ^ that is if you want to keep with it
[15:26:43] jhass: I'm not sure I would
[15:26:57] jhass: like you said yourself, it likely can be rescued at some higher level
[15:27:01] jhass: also how many methods are we talking?
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[15:27:12] mustmodify_: let me check.
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[15:27:41] jhass: yeah, my judgement stays, trying to be smart instead of trying to be clean
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[15:28:07] Papierkorb: mustmodify_: another solution could be to have instead a method, which just yields, but rescues the Error.
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[15:28:22] jhass: or even a wrapper around define_method
[15:29:01] Papierkorb: mustmodify_: would look like: foo = without_redis_error{ redis.the_operation }
[15:29:11] mustmodify: yeah, that's my thinking
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[15:29:26] mustmodify: safely { REDIS.operation }
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[15:30:03] jhass: I'd go for swallow_errors { }
[15:30:05] Papierkorb: But it really depends. just logging the error and then ignoring it otherwise ... isn't it important?
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[15:30:13] jhass: or suppress_errors
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[15:30:27] jhass: it's not any safer, I'd almost argue on contrary
[15:30:35] mustmodify: Papierkorb: that isn't the only other option.
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[15:31:35] mustmodify: In this case, Redis is being used to maintain a list. I totally want Redis up. But if it's not, I would definitely choose for it to log to Rollbar (our error reporting software) and fail silently.
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[15:31:42] mustmodify: I still get an email. It still gets logged.
[15:31:56] mustmodify: but the operation continues. The list can be rebuilt.
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[15:33:39] jhass: One step further is to take the decision whether to swallow the error or not out of the class, instead write a wrapper that does it
[15:34:43] jhass: class SuppressRedisErrors < SimpleDelegator; def method_missing(*args, &block); super; rescue Redis::Error; ...; end;
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[15:34:51] jhass: then the call side can decide, useful for testing
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[15:35:50] mpr555: Hi again.
[15:36:27] mpr555: I have also been recommended the book "learn ruby the hard way"
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[15:36:43] jhass: I recommend to not do that
[15:36:49] jhass: Zed's Ruby style is awful
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[15:37:09] Papierkorb: aren't "... the hard way" books for people who're already familiar with programming?
[15:37:13] mpr555: i see there is mixed reviews on that, some people rave it, others not, very much like marmite
[15:37:21] jhass: his other books are okay, but his Ruby is dated and never was really idiomatic
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[15:37:38] jhass: Papierkorb: not necessarily
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[15:38:11] jhass: you need some frustration resistance and initiative though
[15:38:27] mpr555: I think I need to find something that explains the different parts of Ruby. like methods, classes, procs, blocks, and what they all do. its a lot of info!
[15:38:28] jhass: Zed explains it in the intro chapter of each iirc
[15:38:39] jhass: ?quickref
[15:38:39] ruby[bot]: http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/QuickRef.html
[15:38:43] mpr555: ust don't know where to start :)
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[15:39:17] jhass: well it's a bit unfortunate that you just looked at the solutions of the exercises you got stuck on
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[15:39:37] jhass: maybe try redoing them anyway
[15:39:37] mpr555: I didn't for all, and I have not finished it yet
[15:39:43] mpr555: so there are many to do
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[15:39:53] jhass: yes but they build upon each other
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[15:40:15] jhass: that you have trouble with the later ones when you never really thought through the first ones is understandable
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[15:40:19] mpr555: maybe I should start again
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[15:41:18] mpr555: basic loops i am good with. but loops, with in loops. I think my way of thinking about a problem logically is where I am struggling
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[15:41:34] toretore: mpr555: it's just going to take time and effort
[15:41:35] jhass: how long have you been at it?
[15:41:44] mpr555: couple of days :)
[15:41:46] toretore: programming is hard, and learning it is hard
[15:41:51] jhass: yeah it's nothing :)
[15:41:57] jhass: take your time
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[15:42:05] mpr555: i work for a small software team, as a junior programmer
[15:42:28] mpr555: but have a infrastructure backgound in hardware
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[15:42:43] mpr555: I'm going more devops things, mainly just bash
[15:42:48] mpr555: but nothing complicated
[15:42:50] toretore: maybe you can run my kubernetes and i'll write your ruby
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[15:43:30] mpr555: I do find self study hard, i always like an instructor led thing. but thats hard to find around here
[15:44:07] mpr555: I'll start again with the book "Learn to Program"
[15:44:26] mustmodify: So I met this kid through Big Brothers.
[15:44:32] mustmodify: Super smart 10 year old.
[15:44:33] mpr555: toretore: Yup - just don't know where to start, or how to go about starting
[15:44:49] mustmodify: Part of me wants to introduce him to Ruby. Another part of me wants to introduce him to Javascript since it's ... like ...
[15:45:04] mustmodify: more directly useful to someone who won't necessarily be programming?
[15:45:04] toretore: it's like with anything - start anywhere, as long as you get some traction
[15:45:28] shevy: mustmodify have him learn php and be done with it
[15:45:37] mpr555: just need to find something to work towards.
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[15:47:32] shevy: hmmm how do I sort a hash? or rather, each key is just a pointer to an array, and the array itself has one slot for the year
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[15:47:34] mpr555: Well thanks for the info so far. First time I have used IRC as well. seems a friendly place to seek help
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[15:47:49] Papierkorb: mustmodify: I started learning QBasic at 10 years by myself. What I want to point out is, it doesn't matter with which language you start. Both are fine. JS has the benefit of coming with a "GUI" more easily, so you get direct feedback much more easily
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[15:49:28] Papierkorb: mustmodify: years ago, I programmed a gamemode for the "GTA San Andreas Multiplayer (SA:MP)" Mod. The most awesome thing was, when you wrote a bunch of lines, something happened on your screen. Even if you messed up, something wacky happened. You laughed, fixed it. I think this direct feedback thing is more important than choosing "the right" language for the beginning.
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[15:51:23] jhass: mustmodify: perhaps https://scratch.mit.edu/ still?
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[15:52:14] mustmodify: That's good stuff. I think he's past that. I sent him to tryruby.org
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[15:57:05] mpr555: would you guys recommend the code school and codecademy sites?
[15:57:27] shevy: books help but at the end of the day, the best way is to write code on your own no matter what is your skill level or learning curve/speed
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[15:58:07] mpr555: my main aim is to have a web site, with user input to a db and be able to read from it as well
[15:58:15] shevy: a railser!
[15:58:35] adaedra: We don't really recommend things; each person has different ways of learning, so we can't give you the best solution for you like that
[15:58:36] mpr555: yeah i read that rails is the way. but from what i have read, best to lear ruby first?
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[15:59:07] mustmodify: mpr555: I learned Rails/Ruby at the same time and I thought it was a confusing way to go.
[15:59:38] mpr555: I think I will try to stick with ruby. Just need to nail the basics
[15:59:43] mpr555: hard learning on your own though :)
[16:00:13] adaedra: Rails is not a _wrong_ way to go, but it may not show you the whole spectrum of ruby and may cause confusion between what is ruby and what is rails (and what is love)
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[16:01:12] mustmodify: yep. I mean, Rails is great for what it does and has made my life better. But I wish I had learned them separately.
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[16:01:15] shevy: mpr555 just have some things that you want to write, the rest will happen on its own eventually
[16:01:21] mpr555: adaedra: thanks - just need to get it done. I find reading code fairly easy. But writing it, mind goes blank
[16:01:42] mpr555: shevy: yup good way to go for sure
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[16:04:00] shevy: I find reading ruby code by others quite difficult :) or perhaps depending on the style/structure used
[16:05:11] mpr555: when i said reading code, i did mean the beginners stuff i am reading
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[16:11:27] mpr555: thanks for the info so far folks. I will start the book again, and when I start getting confused, I'll pop on here and seek advice
[16:11:36] mpr555: Have a good weekend!!
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[16:31:15] wrkrcoop: i have this string object, and when i call JSON.parse(message.body) it returns a hash but its wrapped in a hash with no key …
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[16:52:55] micalexander: I am writing a script and want to require middleman so that I am able to use the helpers that it provides. When I require middleman I am unable to use it because I get wrong number of arguments as it expects the at least the first one to be an object of the app. I feel like there is something that I am missing. Can someone shed some light on how I would pull in a gem like this and use some of its helpers?
[16:53:53] adam12: Middleman the static site generator?
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[17:00:29] toretore: ?code micalexander
[17:00:29] ruby[bot]: micalexander: We can't help you without your code, please post it to https://gist.github.com
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[17:03:35] arthurl: hi guys- looking for advice on how to debug/isolate ruby code that causes a ruby application to hang around in an uninterruptible sleep state even those the application 'finishes' running
[17:04:51] arthurl: basically the code loads raw files into a database, upon doing so it spawns a 2 or 3 other ruby processes that do the work but when it's finished there's always one ruby process still present in the process list with a 'Sl' state
[17:06:02] toretore: are you reaping the children?
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[17:07:17] arthurl: toretore i'm not a dev so i'm not really sure what the code is doing- but for what i can tell it's not an actual child process that gets left behind- it's the original parent process
[17:07:35] arthurl: i'm just an infra/devops guy trying to stand up this application in a new prod environment and i'm observing this behavior
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[17:08:18] arthurl: but i do have the code base in front of me which i'm looking at trying to understand why this might be happening
[17:09:00] toretore: can you gist the code?
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[17:11:03] arthurl: unfortunately there are a lot of files in this application- plus not sure i can legally put this code up in a gist- sorry about that
[17:12:03] micalexander: adam12: Yes the static site generator. My goal is to use some of the helpers to generate a wordpress theme out of a middleman site. So taking a prototype and quickly making a theme out of it.
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[17:13:16] toretore: arthurl: well then you have a lot of complex code that we can't see, which makes it very difficult to help, *especially* when dealing with an issue like this
[17:14:04] arthurl: toretore no i understand i guess my question was moreso is there a general approach that i could tkae
[17:14:11] micalexander: here is the code https://gist.github.com/micalexander/539a18c39c925af3f0e93442e7073507
[17:14:18] arthurl: or if this was common with some ruby apps
[17:15:15] toretore: arthurl: it's not really specific to ruby apps, the mechanisms used are the same everywhere
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[17:15:52] toretore: arthurl: how are you determining the results that you see?
[17:17:09] toretore: arthurl: first step would be to run the application in the terminal and observe its behavior. does it hang, fork, leave zombies?
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[17:17:43] arthurl: toretore it always forks 3 other ruby instances- those finish and terminate
[17:18:14] micalexander: adam12: toretore: https://gist.github.com/micalexander/539a18c39c925af3f0e93442e7073507
[17:18:36] toretore: arthurl: and then what happens?
[17:18:51] toretore: arthurl: are you running this from the terminal, in the foreground?
[17:19:02] arthurl: running from terminal yes
[17:19:06] arthurl: in foreground, correct
[17:19:24] toretore: and it never returns?
[17:19:34] arthurl: no it does
[17:19:36] arthurl: that's the thing
[17:19:43] arthurl: it executes, outputs, then returns
[17:19:46] arthurl: but when i do a px aux
[17:19:51] arthurl: i see it leaves behind a process
[17:20:08] toretore: are you sure it's the same as the one you started? because that seems unlikely
[17:20:25] arthurl: but i don't say it's a zombie because the state is 'Sl' uninterruptible sleep'
[17:20:31] arthurl: let me double check that
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[17:22:30] arthurl: toretore you were right it's one of the other ones that get spawned
[17:22:32] arthurl: that gets left behind
[17:22:35] arthurl: not the original pid
[17:23:04] jhass: then there's likely a missing waitpid call for it
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[17:24:22] toretore: well, it's sleeping so it's probably stuck on something
[17:24:37] toretore: and also missing a wait of course
[17:25:28] arthurl: so what's interesting is to my knowledge this same exact application runs on a different host without issue- meaning it doesn't leave any processes behind after it finishes- however it's ran through a crontask on that host
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[17:27:41] arthurl: i'm wondering if this is actually by design and if it eventually would terminate itself
[17:27:46] arthurl: maybe some sleep/wait thing going on
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[17:31:35] drbrain: it's not a missing waitpid if the process isn't in Z
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[17:32:38] drbrain: strace might help here, or attaching with a debugger and examining the stack
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[17:33:35] arthurl: drbrain strace is a good idea- thx
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[17:49:43] arthurl: toretore so here is some of the code- i THINK that top function (process_retry) is where the forking is happening?
[17:49:44] arthurl: https://gist.github.com/alyssenko/94e5cc4a985b285b828f93cca3e89532
[17:50:35] arthurl: so basically if the application fails to find a file for a given country for a given provider it puts that provider/country combo into a retry array which forks this process
[17:51:30] drbrain: arthurl: I wouldn't be surprised if you hang in process_single
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[17:52:51] arthurl: drbrain right- that's what i'm thinking too- just trying to understand the code
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[18:00:51] drbrain: arthurl: I bet the stderr or stdout from sh is full
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[18:20:19] arthurl: drbrain hmm let me see about that
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[18:48:13] micalexander: I am writing a script and want to require middleman so that I am able to use the helpers that it provides. When I require middleman I am unable to use it because I get wrong number of arguments as it expects the at least the first one to be an object of the app. I feel like there is something that I am missing. Can someone shed some light on how I would pull in a gem like this and use some of its helpers? The code is here
[18:48:13] micalexander: https://gist.github.com/micalexander/539a18c39c925af3f0e93442e7073507
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[19:09:39] drbrain: if micalexander comes back, point them at http://rack.github.io
[19:09:43] drbrain: it's got an example app
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[19:11:15] jhass: I don't think middleman wants a rack app
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[19:13:45] drbrain: ah, I guess it wants one of these: https://github.com/middleman/middleman/blob/master/middleman-core/lib/middleman-core/application.rb
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[19:56:55] havenwood: rindolf: hi
[19:58:31] rindolf: havenwood: sup?
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[20:14:00] havenwood: rindolf: Freya's Day!
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[20:21:55] rindolf: havenwood: http://www.crowl.org/Lawrence/time/days.html#Friday - I see.
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[20:58:09] splud: what is the preferred method of defining a variable - such as a class implementation “version”, such that if the class is overridden, that variable will consistently be used from the new definition?
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[20:58:41] splud: and my overridden, monkeypatching is included.
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[20:59:59] cek: how do I capture stuff in erb? want to output it later on
[21:00:07] cek: haml has capture, want the same
[21:00:21] hellcode: splud: the one that best works for your application of course
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[21:02:12] zacts: what is monkeypatching?
[21:02:51] jhass: zacts: reopening a class you do not own (haven't written) and overriding or adding a method
[21:03:07] splud: zacts - der google is your friend. You can load a class definition to replace/extend an already instantiated object.
[21:03:16] zacts: I understand that, but I hadn't heard of the term
[21:03:22] havenwood: zacts: Freedom patching**
[21:03:23] splud: jhass: actually, it can be a class you wrote.
[21:03:23] zacts: I knew the concept, not the term
[21:03:33] havenwood: zacts: For a more refined take, see Refinements: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.3.1/doc/syntax/refinements_rdoc.html
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[21:03:53] splud: consider the possibility of pushing an updated API to a server, and having it load it.
[21:04:12] jhass: does anybody actually do that?
[21:04:19] jhass: seems fragile
[21:04:31] jhass: (see http://blog.rkh.im/code-reloading)
[21:05:04] splud: One wouldn’t do it wholesale. There are places where it can be useful. Bootstrapping...
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[21:05:13] jhass: splud: got some code to illustrate your question?
[21:05:32] splud: I’m just going to have a class variable hash and update it.
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[21:09:24] hellcode: jhass thanks I was struggling with that
[21:09:31] splud: in my case, the monkeypatched class defines a specific api, not a class used or inherited by other code. THAT would certainy complicate the use.
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[21:11:20] splud: I have an update_api endpoint that allows for exchange of an encrypted update, after validation, that gets required (with exception handling), and if successful, the new api is bootstrapped (allowing it to obviously set the new api version as well as update any variables which may need to be updated).
[21:11:54] splud: Which in the present case is none, but the bootstrap protocol should be there so that the patching can accomodate it if a future api needs it.
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[21:18:22] hellcode: my brain hurts
[21:19:00] hellcode: so what you mean is that the overriden variable will be known or otherwise needed by the user?
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[21:19:11] splud: IMO, if you have an API, there should be a method/endpoint that provides an API version.
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[21:20:00] hellcode: oooh... all along I've been misreading your first statement
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[21:20:29] hellcode: why not an @instance-variable ?
[21:20:31] splud: user queries the API, determines it isn’t up to date, has a newer one (fixed or added functionality), and pushes that, and a query of the API version would then return the updated version.
[21:20:52] hellcode: @version = 1 # before update
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[21:21:15] hellcode: unless, of course, your code somehow gets run anew everytime
[21:21:18] splud: instance wouldn’t update other instances.
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[21:21:42] splud: if you’re redefining the CLASS, all instances would be updated.
[21:21:47] yuung: anyone have experience connecting to an AWS emr hive server via ruby?
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[21:22:18] hellcode: then... @@variable?
[21:22:32] hellcode: class variable that spans all it's instances
[21:22:35] splud: yes, class variable, used to store a hash - it’s what I’m doing now.
[21:22:53] splud: @@configuration[“api_version”]
[21:23:54] hellcode: so? I mean, I don't know what the best practices bestowed by the elders of ruby are
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[21:24:02] hellcode: but looks like a solution to me
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[21:46:36] shevy: I am wondering at which point the use of @instance_variables in any given class, becomes excessive
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[21:47:48] dunpeal: How should I define helper functions inside a method?
[21:48:15] dunpeal: I want to have something like def foo; def bar; 'qux'; end; puts bar; end
[21:48:21] dunpeal: that would output 'qux'
[21:48:30] shevy: please don't
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[21:57:01] xpitr: dunpeal private methods in same class?
[21:57:13] xpitr: seems more elegant
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[22:10:55] jhass: ^ defining a method in a method does not do what you most likely think it does
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[22:28:44] Ebok: Anyone seen Ox0dea around?
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[22:34:03] shevy: we had that question perhaps a month ago :D
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[22:42:29] Ebok: A month ago I was just checking in every few days and looking around
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[23:06:24] werwe: https://i.redd.it/6um66531guax.jpg
[23:06:25] werwe: https://i.redd.it/6um66531guax.jpg
[23:07:42] ruby[bot]: +bb werwe!*@*$#ruby-banned *!*@80.107.85.106$#ruby-banned
[23:07:42] ruby[bot]: ruby[bot] kicked werwe: offense, see http://ruby-community.com/pages/user_rules
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[23:09:05] hellcode: shevy: about @instance_variables in a class, is there anything about code that isn't relative to the task and architecture at hand?
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[23:45:27] shevy: hellcode well, compare storing all data in a hash, or putting the data into @ivars there
[23:46:18] shevy: many of my classes for commandline use have means to determine whether they run with colour support or without; so I may have this in one instance variable
[23:47:16] shevy: but there are some more toggleable states so more instance variables spring into existence
[23:48:02] shevy: when I then have a fairly big class, and its reset() method having like +10 instance variables, it feels clunky and big
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[23:51:01] hellcode: I do use hashes to group related values
[23:51:18] hellcode: plus, for the user it ends up being cleaner too
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