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#ruby - 11 April 2017

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[01:33:00] PorcoRex: Good evening.
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[02:34:36] ThePortWhisperer: i was on version 2.4.0 and downgraded to 2.3.0
[02:34:59] ThePortWhisperer: when i do gem env home it says its looking at ..../rvm/gems/ruby-2.4.0
[02:35:26] ThePortWhisperer: i also did rbenv global 2.3.0
[02:35:40] ThePortWhisperer: what do i do about this wrong gem env home
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[02:38:23] PorcoRex: rbenv and rvm are not compatible with each other. You need to uninstall one and install the other.
[02:38:29] PorcoRex: ThePortWhisperer, ^
[02:39:13] ThePortWhisperer: okay, after i uninsatll rvm then how do i fix the gem home
[02:39:52] PorcoRex: What do you mean by gem home?
[02:40:51] ThePortWhisperer: the output of <gem env home>
[02:41:20] ThePortWhisperer: i was trying to remove rvm - rvm uninstall and rvm remove both return: Really? uninstall, all? See "rvm list" and limit the selection to something more sane please :)
[02:41:58] ThePortWhisperer: rvm list says : rvm rubies /n /n #no rvn rubies installed yet. try rvm help install.
[02:42:21] PorcoRex: Is rvm installed for your local user or globally?
[02:43:01] PorcoRex: when i do gem env home it says its looking at ..../rvm/gems/ruby-2.4.0 <- what's this full path?
[02:43:22] ThePortWhisperer: /root/.rbenv/versions/2.3.0/lib/ruby/gems/2.3.0
[02:43:43] PorcoRex: That doesn't look like the same path.
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[02:44:33] ThePortWhisperer: okay after i ran that rvm remove and rvm uninstall i guess it jiggled something around
[02:44:47] ThePortWhisperer: even though it seemed to throw an error
[02:45:07] ThePortWhisperer: so i guess the issue has been fixed
[02:45:17] ThePortWhisperer: its now pointing to gems/2.3.0
[02:46:42] PorcoRex: But in root's home dir. Are you purposefully doing that?
[02:47:45] ThePortWhisperer: yeah im just on some vm for a pentesting course
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[02:55:02] Aeyris: Heh, you must be using Kali.
[02:55:24] Aeyris: The only somewhat mainstream distribution that completely throws the Unix user access model out the window is the one geared towards "security people".
[02:59:33] ThePortWhisperer: Aeyris, we just use these VM's to wreck some boxes on a vpn and then dump them
[02:59:48] Aeyris: ThePortWhisperer: OSCP course?
[03:00:00] Aeyris: Did it a while ago. Good fun.
[03:00:27] Aeyris: OS-101-05669
[03:00:33] ThePortWhisperer: Aeyris, twisted definition of fun :)
[03:00:46] ThePortWhisperer: wow, they dont use that format anymore
[03:00:59] Aeyris: What's the new format?
[03:01:15] ThePortWhisperer: im guessing you would be considered OS-5669 now. im OS-24826.
[03:01:23] Aeyris: OS-19579.
[03:01:29] Aeyris: The -101- format is for completion.
[03:01:34] Aeyris: At least, as far as I'm aware.
[03:02:13] ThePortWhisperer: AHHH, I see, i didn't realize that was the grad format as I haven't got mine yet.
[03:02:30] Aeyris: You'll get there. ;)
[03:05:08] ThePortWhisperer: alright back to pwning, #offsec has some good banter, lots of grads as well if you want to add to autojoin
[03:05:26] ThePortWhisperer: otherwise catch you in here next time i muck up my msfconsole gems
[03:05:56] Aeyris: Just joined. Hit me up if you have any questions about the lab. :)
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[06:07:20] bigtawm: Hey everyone. I want to make a bot for slack that reads from a google doc and alerts a channel when a row of data has been added along with a formatted output of the data in the chat. Is anyone familiar with slack and google drive apis? Also, how would I host this code so that it is always running?
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[06:08:36] dminuoso: bigtawm: The drive api has push notifications you can subscribe to.
[06:08:49] dminuoso: bigtawm: https://developers.google.com/drive/v3/web/push
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[06:13:34] bigtawm: This looks like exactly what I need cause the google sheet gets automatically populated through the submission of a form
[06:14:33] bigtawm: Would I have to create a sinatra app to take the post request?
[06:15:18] dminuoso: bigtawm: That is how webhooks work, yes.
[06:15:56] j416: Isn't there an ifttt thing for that
[06:16:37] dminuoso: If sinatra is too much work for you, pick a different hobby. Like professional excel spreadsheeting.
[06:17:30] bigtawm: Okay cool. What would you recommend for hosting this app? Im a CS student so I havent put anything out on production like this.
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[06:19:27] dminuoso: bigtawm: No idea honestly. I know heroku has some free plans but they are limited. You might try #rubyonrails - much more likely to get an adequate answer there.
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[06:20:06] bigtawm: Okay, thanks I appreciate the help
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[07:27:51] yuppie: whats up with this? https://pastebin.com/cjycMkBf
[07:27:52] ruby[bot]: yuppie: we in #ruby do not like pastebin.com, I reposted your paste to gist for you: https://gist.github.com/9248a3ead1403f495dc31616b68b0b3b
[07:27:52] ruby[bot]: yuppie: pastebin.com loads slowly for most, has ads which are distracting and has terrible formatting.
[07:28:08] yuppie: im trying to install aws-sdk-v1 1.66
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[07:29:05] apeiros: try with a non-EOL ruby version?
[07:30:01] yuppie: which one is non-EOL?
[07:30:10] apeiros: I think we're at 2.2+
[07:30:32] apeiros: 2.2.1 is an old version of the 2.2 series
[07:30:55] yuppie: and how can i upgrade from 2.2.1 to the latest? im using rvm
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[07:31:15] dminuoso: ACTION blames rvm
[07:31:27] apeiros: rvm install ruby-2.2.7
[07:31:44] apeiros: you should probably also update your rvm installation
[07:32:01] yuppie: and how do i do that?
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[07:32:35] apeiros: rvm get stable
[07:32:40] apeiros: do you need a spoon along with that?
[07:32:55] yuppie: silver, pls
[07:33:42] apeiros: note that 2.2 is soon to be EOLed too
[07:33:47] apeiros: 2.4 is the current version
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[08:02:12] asperon: hi, i have an array that looks like this: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/3ae37bbad75a3b1309f6cc288b6f725a, how would i retrive a hash from it given its name if it exists?
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[08:03:54] asperon: i have tried fonts.detect {|e| e == text_field['font'].capitalize} to no avail
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[08:06:32] tobiasvl: asperon: not sure I follow. what is text_field?
[08:06:55] asperon: tobiasvl: its just a text string with the font name
[08:07:04] asperon: ie, Tangerine for example
[08:07:20] asperon: so i want to match it agains the hash "key" or whatever it is called
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[08:08:56] elomatreb: asperon: Hash#key? may be useful
[08:09:27] asperon: elomatreb: right, thats probably it, via select?
[08:09:28] herwin: is there any reason this data is an array of hashes that all have 1 key, and not just a hash?
[08:10:00] asperon: herwin: its used like this in RMagic, and i would prefer to reuse it
[08:10:03] tobiasvl: asperon: since the hashes are nested you'd have to do something like this: fonts.detect {|e| e.detect {|f,_| f == text_field['font'].capitalize }}
[08:10:19] tobiasvl: but Hash#key? is better
[08:10:24] elomatreb: select returns an array with the elements that satisfy the condition, find/detect will return the first element that matches, even if there are more
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[08:10:33] tobiasvl: also a good point
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[08:11:04] asperon: elomatreb: ok, so i should use detect then but with | key, hash |?
[08:11:22] asperon: that seemed to workj
[08:11:33] elomatreb: Your top-level structure is an array, it doesn't have any keys, only values
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[08:12:22] asperon: yes, but the values are hashes, and detect wouldn't match the string vs the hash key
[08:12:36] herwin: fonts.flat_map(&:to_a).to_h makes the structure much easier to work with
[08:12:54] tobiasvl: perhaps asperon meant the nested detect that I suggested
[08:12:58] tobiasvl: which works
[08:13:10] asperon: tobiasvl: exactly
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[08:15:32] mikecmpbll: why does `bundle gem ..` create a /bin dir and then set `spec.bindir = 'exe'` in the gemspec?
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[08:16:44] elomatreb: bin is for utility scripts used during dev, exe for actual exposed executables iirc
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[08:17:09] mikecmpbll: ah okidokes, makes sense.
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[08:34:21] Qchmqs: what's the channel for hanami the framework ?
[08:35:22] canton7: Qchmqs, looking at their website,it's this gitter channel: https://gitter.im/hanami/chat
[08:35:37] canton7: (down at the bottom of the homepage, see the "Chat" link)
[08:36:33] Qchmqs: I'm not looking for chat, was just looking for their freenode channel
[08:36:35] Qchmqs: if they had one
[08:36:59] Qchmqs: I like joining channels and just looking occasionally for interesting talk
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[08:41:33] yuppie: whats the deal here guys? https://gist.github.com/internaught/72bab1a38a5f133c7e0f6eddf106c68d
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[08:44:30] yuppie: here is with latest everything https://gist.github.com/internaught/72bab1a38a5f133c7e0f6eddf106c68d
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[08:52:10] chichou: yuppie: did you try with installing libxml2 with homebrew?
[08:52:56] chichou: I assume you are on mac os x?
[08:53:15] yuppie: and i already have that lib installed
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[08:55:27] chichou: so the first attempt try to use its own libxml2 and the second one cannot find it on your system, I assume that you didn't brew link it then?
[08:55:34] chichou: as it's a keg-only formula
[08:55:56] yuppie: i've linked it now
[08:56:28] yuppie: https://gist.github.com/internaught/4c03d4548c0a046c9f7c6b498dbd59d7
[08:58:01] yuppie: invalid gem: package is corrupt, exception while verifying: undefined method `path2class'
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[08:58:25] srandon111: hello all, is it true that threading is discouraged in ruby ?
[08:59:14] chichou: yuppie: it probably doesn't matter but the first gists you are using 2.2.7 and the last one 2.0.0, is it intended?
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[08:59:34] yuppie: chichou yeah, im trying to find one that works
[08:59:51] yuppie: in the end, it doesn't really matter, i need a ruby with aws-sdk-v1 1.67 installed
[08:59:59] yuppie: but im having some troulble getting there
[09:01:59] chichou: trying on my system
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[09:07:05] chichou: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/70acdb2150cf2f408def8617359fa721 it seems to work on mine yuppie
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[09:07:28] chichou: using another version of ruby but still
[09:07:33] chichou: I'm using rbenv
[09:07:41] yuppie: what version are you on
[09:07:47] chichou: it's in the gist but 2.4
[09:08:23] chichou: 2.4.1 to be precise
[09:11:11] yuppie: alright i'll try to use that
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[09:17:47] dminuoso: srandon111: Not necessarily.
[09:18:37] yuppie: im not sure what the issue really is
[09:18:50] dminuoso: srandon111: You just have to understand the limitations of the GVL. As long as you use multithreading to obtain parallelism *or* concurrent blocking IO then its fine.
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[09:19:43] dminuoso: And woops. I mixed these two up right there.
[09:20:31] dminuoso: Concurrent actions are just fine with Ruby, threads will give you that. But if you want to obtain true parallelism, you can only get this with I/O for the most part.
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[09:21:39] chichou: or you can use JRuby but that's another topic I guess
[09:22:30] chichou: yuppie: still no luck?
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[09:24:30] dminuoso: 11:21 < chichou> or you can use JRuby but that's another topic I guess
[09:24:37] dminuoso: You may talk about JRuby in here.
[09:25:11] herwin: but it's not mentioned in the topic
[09:26:50] yuppie: chichou https://gist.github.com/internaught/df4437e8564e9eb729b8fd9f16aa8e45
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[09:27:31] chichou: yuppie what's your psych's version, out of curiosity?
[09:28:21] yuppie: https://gist.github.com/internaught/516096e6e93f4e704abcb2805401d243
[09:29:56] yuppie: switching to ruby 2.4.0
[09:30:08] yuppie: same error
[09:30:24] yuppie: encoding.c:815:27: warning: cast from 'unsigned char *' to 'unsigned short *' increases required alignment from 1 to 2 [-Wcast-align]
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[09:32:26] yuppie: i guess my xcode stuff needs to be updated?
[09:33:13] chichou: you already checked there https://github.com/sparklemotion/nokogiri/issues/1483 I guess :-)
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[09:35:35] yuppie: http://www.nokogiri.org/tutorials/installing_nokogiri.html#mac_os_x
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[09:42:11] yuppie: well i got it all installed now
[09:42:17] yuppie: but things still arent working as expected
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[09:44:46] chichou: sounds like my everyday struggles
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[10:07:02] yuppie: https://hastebin.com/noyoxaroxe.coffeescript
[10:07:06] yuppie: why must i hate ruby so much
[10:07:31] txdv: why do you hate ruby
[10:08:06] yuppie: because i dont know how to solve these errors
[10:08:25] txdv: what is this wulfcli?
[10:08:58] yuppie: in-house bullshit
[10:09:15] txdv: is the developer of it in da house?
[10:09:26] txdv: you are just defining a 'constant' called LIB_DIR again
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[10:09:49] yuppie: https://hastebin.com/tuvegoqido.sql
[10:09:59] yuppie: how do i stop that constant
[10:10:05] txdv: ruby --version
[10:10:31] yuppie: https://hastebin.com/ixubojotuk.rb
[10:10:44] yuppie: ruby 2.0.0p481 (2014-05-08 revision 45883) [x86_64-darwin13.1.0]
[10:10:49] yuppie: co-worker is on this version
[10:10:51] yuppie: and all is well
[10:11:06] txdv: where do you work?
[10:11:16] yuppie: a google company
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[10:14:13] arne_: can i get ruby to treat "\r" as new line too
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[10:28:06] arne_: f.readline
[10:28:07] arne_: Burgestrand:
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[10:28:47] burgestrand: arne_ You can pass a separator to it: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.4.0/IO.html#method-i-readline
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[10:40:25] denniszelada: Hello I am getting an issue in production, we are using kafka 0.9 and ruby 2.3, we have two brokers and one partition for the topic, and we have just one consumer with a group_id, but today we got an error which says no messages in the partition, seems like the subscribed_partitions of the group is empty, do you guys have any idea of what could be wrong?
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[10:47:05] Qchmqs: denniszelada: one thing you obviously have wrong is that your dev env isn't exactly like your production one
[10:47:17] Qchmqs: and if you added a staging proccess this should've been caught early
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[10:51:42] denniszelada: @Qchmqs disclaimer I didn’t did this I am just trying to fix what people do
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[11:41:01] arne_: Burgestrand: thanks alot, can i also give it multiple seperators?
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[11:43:00] arne_: well, doesn't look like it
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[12:30:02] yuppie: im getting mixed messages about installing nokogiri
[12:30:07] yuppie: https://github.com/sparklemotion/nokogiri/issues/1166
[12:30:16] yuppie: use these flags, dont use these flags, link it, dont link it
[12:30:40] yuppie: https://gist.github.com/internaught/99f5e420f9759f4a3181050d2e07b315
[12:30:50] yuppie: what the fuck is the problem with ruby these days
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[12:31:57] burgestrand: arne_ No, unfortunately if you need to do something fancy I believe you might have to read/buffer/split for yourself. If it's not a problem to load the entire file in memory, I'd simply do `File.read(path).split(/regex/)` and be done with it.
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[12:37:04] yuppie: gem install nokogiri -v 1.6.3.1 -- --with-iconv-lib=/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.12.sdk/usr/lib --with-iconv-include=/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.12.sdk/usr/include
[12:38:14] arne_: Burgestrand: thanks alot
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[12:39:24] arne_: Burgestrand: do you have experience with guessing these things?
[12:39:31] arne_: i am having a csv import in my app
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[12:39:52] burgestrand: arne_ I am a professional guesser
[12:39:55] arne_: and people do stuff like ..\r, and the col_sep is not always defined
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[12:40:30] burgestrand: arne_ Have you tried looking at the built-in CSV capabilities of Ruby to see if they're sufficient for your needs? http://ruby-doc.org/stdlib-2.4.0/libdoc/csv/rdoc/CSV.html
[12:40:46] arne_: yes, i am using csv.parse(file.read,col_sep:';') right now
[12:41:15] arne_: but col_sep needs to be guessed, atleast
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[13:11:08] apeiros: arne_: read the first ~10K, count ; vs ,
[13:11:55] apeiros: of course, this will fail if somebody embeds a , separated csv in a ; separated csv :D
[13:12:29] apeiros: (there are other ways to guess, but they're more difficult to pull off)
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[13:58:41] sanguisdex: anyone have an alais/function that when they run rubocop it opens the reported files in their editor?
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[14:28:31] arne_: apeiros: ah yes, but then i don't know what the line seperator is
[14:28:38] arne_: i should've never gotten into it
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[14:29:10] apeiros: arne_: it's not that difficult to look for/count \r\n, \r, \n
[14:29:53] apeiros: though with line endings I'd probably just look for the first occurrence of /\r?\n|\r/
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[14:54:32] impermanence: I'm not quite sure why this error is being thrown: https://gist.github.com/jonassteinberg1/89a2a679b2b2ec5ccf991824788dea48
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[14:59:20] dminuoso: impermanence: Let's have the full code.
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[15:25:22] sanguisdex: apeiros: in vim the line seperator is just :. so vim foo.rb:44
[15:26:31] impermanence: dminuso: sorry for the delay. sure, no problem. but everything else is commented out.
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[15:28:29] impermanence: dminuoso: https://gist.github.com/jonassteinberg1/89a2a679b2b2ec5ccf991824788dea48
[15:30:13] dminuoso: impermanence: The stacktrace and your code do not match.
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[15:31:34] dminuoso: impermanence: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.1.5/Kernel.html#method-i-gets
[15:31:39] dminuoso: impermanence: This is what you are calling.
[15:32:08] dminuoso: impermanence: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.1.5/IO.html#method-i-gets
[15:32:15] dminuoso: impermanence: This is what you probably meant to call.
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[15:32:37] dminuoso: impermanence: Probably on the instance STDIN ;-)
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[15:33:33] dminuoso: Sorry about that remark, I can see how this might have been misleading.
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[15:34:53] souljah: Hello, I'm having some issues after a recent firmware update, My reverse-ssh functionallity is no longer responding to 'sudo service reverse-ssh start'
[15:35:11] souljah: It is throwin an error of /usr/lib/ruby/1.9.1/rubygems/custom_require.rb:36:in `require': cannot load such file -- daemons (LoadError)
[15:35:25] souljah: Someone help pls, Ruby is not my area
[15:35:44] havenwood: souljah: gem install daemons # it's looking for the daemons gem
[15:36:03] souljah: havenwood: The daemons gem is installed, that's the issue
[15:36:22] havenwood: souljah: Is it in your Gemfile (are you using a Gemfile.lock?)
[15:36:32] souljah: havenwood: I will check
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[15:37:14] souljah: havenwood: The entries for Daemons within Gemfile.lock is: daemons (1.1.9)
[15:37:14] souljah: daemons (>= 1.0.9)
[15:37:19] havenwood: souljah: If it isn't, try a `gem 'daemons'` in your Gemfile then run: bundle
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[15:37:58] havenwood: souljah: Try prefixing the command you're getting the error with with `bundle exec`. If that doesn't work confirm there aren't multiple versions of Ruby in play.
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[15:38:57] souljah: havenwood: How do I check current installation versions of ruby?
[15:39:12] havenwood: souljah: ruby -v
[15:39:17] havenwood: souljah: command -v ruby
[15:39:34] souljah: ruby 2.0.0p481 (2014-05-08 revision 45883) [x86_64-linux]
[15:40:07] havenwood: souljah: Yeah, multiple versions of Ruby. You were showing 1.9.1 above.
[15:40:35] souljah: So daemons needs to be 2.0.0
[15:40:37] havenwood: Maybe you used `sudo` and dropped env?
[15:41:11] havenwood: souljah: No, you need to make it available to 1.9.1 (or better yet, stop using that old system Ruby and use 2.3 or 2.4.
[15:42:10] souljah: havenwood: How do I make it available to 1.9.1, unfortunetly changing 2.0.0 isn't an option :(
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[15:42:57] havenwood: souljah: Pick which Ruby you're doing this with and make sure it's just that Ruby. Do you really need multiple Rubies installed? That seems confusing if unnecessary.
[15:43:21] havenwood: souljah: You can use one of the many Ruby version switchers if you really need multiple Rubies.
[15:43:24] souljah: havenwood: The whole system is backwards, but changing it isn't an option for me,
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[15:44:02] dminuoso: So seeing as this is #ruby, we can surely discuss why my enzyme+jest seems to automock for no obvious reasons, right havenwood?
[15:44:17] dminuoso: ACTION prepares
[15:44:35] herwin: ACTION leaves preparing to postgresql
[15:44:37] dminuoso: JavaScript is like a special kind of Ruby. I promise.
[15:44:44] souljah: I ran a 'sudo apt-get install --reinstall linux-firmware' on one of our machines and now the reverse-ssh program is throwing ruby errors for the gem of Daemons
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[15:45:44] havenwood: dminuoso: Nerp!
[15:45:49] baweaver: dminuoso: *promise* I see what you did there
[15:46:42] havenwood: souljah: Mind showing us `which -a ruby` so we can get a better picture of where the Rubies are?
[15:46:43] havenwood: souljah: My guess is only 1.9 is an apt Ruby? Or...
[15:47:06] souljah: /usr/local/bin/ruby
[15:47:06] souljah: /usr/bin/ruby
[15:47:30] havenwood: souljah: Okay, so a 2.0 in /usr/local/bin and a 1.9 in /usr/bin
[15:47:46] havenwood: souljah: And?: sudo ruby -v
[15:47:59] souljah: ruby 2.0.0p481 (2014-05-08 revision 45883) [x86_64-linux]
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[15:50:22] havenwood: souljah: Is there a?: command -v ruby19
[15:50:43] havenwood: command -v gem19
[15:51:01] havenwood: souljah: If you have the gem19 command available, try: sudo gem19 install daemons
[15:51:19] souljah: no luck there
[15:51:38] havenwood: souljah: So it looks like you have one system Ruby, then one Ruby manually compiled to /usr/local/bin...
[15:51:47] havenwood: souljah: With no way to switch Rubies. :-P
[15:52:24] impermanence: dminuoso: I was just trying to call gets.chomp. And save that to a variable. I don't see what the problem is? I'm new so I was just following a (well-written) tutorial.
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[15:52:35] souljah: I don't understand what would have caused this error to occur in the first place,
[15:52:57] havenwood: souljah: You could change the path order momentarily to put /usr/bin first, or use the full path to the 1.9 gem binary.
[15:53:14] souljah: this was working just before my last reboot, and no interaction was made with the ruby files,
[15:53:21] souljah: how do i specify full path?
[15:53:33] havenwood: souljah: /full/path/to/gem
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[15:53:44] havenwood: souljah: which -a gem
[15:53:47] allisio: impermanence: How do you, as a newbie, know what would constitute "well-written" in this context?
[15:54:01] havenwood: souljah: it's probably the second one on that list of two ^
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[15:54:20] havenwood: impermanence: Use: STDOUT.gets
[15:54:42] matthewd: allisio: "well-written" and "accurate" mean different things
[15:54:52] souljah: havenwood: 'which -a gem' returns /usr/bin/gem
[15:54:55] allisio: I disagree.
[15:54:56] dminuoso: havenwood: STDOUT.gets ?
[15:54:56] havenwood: impermanence: (That's the takeaway from what dminuoso was saying above.)
[15:55:02] havenwood: dminuoso: lol
[15:55:08] impermanence: havenwood: k.
[15:55:13] allisio: Or, well, I don't think an inaccurate piece of writing should ever be considered "well-written".
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[15:55:14] havenwood: dminuoso: I haven't had my coffee.... ;-P
[15:55:17] dminuoso: havenwood: Heh.
[15:55:23] havenwood: impermanence: STDIN.gets
[15:55:34] allisio: havenwood: I hadn't looked at the Gist yet and you got me excited to see what sort of shenanigans would've caused you to suggest `STDOUT.gets`. :P
[15:55:41] havenwood: allisio: rofl
[15:55:58] havenwood: allisio: STDOUT = STDIN; STDOUT.gets
[15:56:42] impermanence: allisio: look at the gist, please. I'm confused because my experience with other scripting languages leads me to think: Well...based on my previous ruby practice...it seems like this should work.
[15:57:02] matthewd: havenwood: Given the assignments to ARGV, that's not so far off :/
[15:57:11] allisio: havenwood: `STDIN.puts` is (very) occasionally useful, so I thought there might be some corollary I'd not yet chanced upon.
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[15:57:44] havenwood: impermanence: read carefully: http://ruby-doc.org/core/Kernel.html#method-i-gets
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[15:58:43] havenwood: "or from standard input if no files are present on the command line"
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[15:59:01] impermanence: havenwood: I will.
[15:59:04] allisio: impermanence: Why on earth are you assigning to ARGV?
[15:59:13] allisio: In which scripting language are you used to doing that?
[15:59:31] apeiros: havenwood: $stdin/$stdout should be preferred over STDIN/STDOUT
[15:59:52] allisio: But only if you don't know how to silently reassign constants.
[15:59:55] apeiros: (didn't read the full backlog)
[16:00:01] dminuoso: apeiros: And 1 should be preferred over $$/$$
[16:00:04] dminuoso: While we are at best practices.
[16:00:22] impermanence: allisio: I was just testing out different "stuff" is all.
[16:00:42] baweaver: dminuoso: you were never here for Ox0dea were you?
[16:00:55] matthewd: impermanence: Then you should know what you did that made it stop working
[16:00:59] dminuoso: baweaver: I absolutely was.
[16:01:19] baweaver: ah, so you know the horrors he unleashed on the world XD
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[16:03:04] impermanence: matthewd: fair enough.
[16:04:26] matthewd: impermanence: To be clear, that doesn't mean "don't ask for help in understanding", but that your question would ideally be more like "I did X, and Y happened; I expected Z, can you help me understand why?"
[16:05:00] adam12: allisio: Any reasoning on preferring $stdin over STDIN?
[16:05:08] allisio: apeiros: ^
[16:05:15] havenwood: adam12: reassignment
[16:05:15] adam12: allisio: Woops :)
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[16:05:21] apeiros: adam12: Kernel uses the $ vars
[16:05:37] matthewd: (and less "this script isn't doing what it should. It would work in other languages. Why is ruby being wrong?")
[16:05:55] apeiros: also reassigning constants gives warnings (can be done without, though)
[16:06:15] adam12: Is reassigning one of the std fd's common?
[16:06:20] adam12: I'm not sure I've ever done it.
[16:06:35] apeiros: it's reasonably common
[16:06:41] impermanence: matthewd: No, I understood what you meant. I've been using gets.chomp to get input for a couple of different exercises now. So...I'm baffled as to why the code in the gist doesn't work. havenwood, as did dminuoso sent me the doc on gets so I'm going to read that and I think that will answer my question. I'd read it now, but I'm "working".
[16:06:42] havenwood: adam12: the pattern is `$stdin = Whatever` then later `$stdin = STDIN` to set it back
[16:06:51] apeiros: consider daemons which want to log all which accidentally goes to stdout/stderr
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[16:07:04] herwin: adam12: other languages often require reopen or dup2 to change it
[16:07:08] apeiros: there's a point to be made that this should happen externally, though
[16:07:10] herwin: it's common, just more work
[16:07:21] allisio: impermanence: Kernel#gets will try to read from a file provided on the command line before looking for input on the standard input stream.
[16:07:38] allisio: Your first call is working because there are no command-line arguments, so it jumps right to reading stdin.
[16:07:44] allisio: Then you go and fuck with its head by modifying ARGV.
[16:07:44] apeiros: yupp, Kernel#gets is ARGF.gets
[16:08:06] apeiros: that has caused quite some confusion
[16:08:18] matthewd: For the record, TIL ^
[16:08:44] matthewd: I guess just because I'd always write the more explicit one automatically
[16:08:49] apeiros: it can be convenient, but I still think Kernel#gets should be $stdin.gets instead of ARGF.gets
[16:09:57] matthewd: Yeah, ARGF is awesome when it's what you need, but seems rather open to surprise to have it sneak in unbidden
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[16:21:08] havenwood: apeiros: agreed, the fancy is more than offset by the confusion
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[16:33:46] allisio: "Mr. Matsumoto, tear down this Wall."
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[16:34:57] allisio: "The Perls are lovely, dark and deep, but I have promises to keep, and miles to go before Ruby 3."
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[16:45:42] elsevero: any idea how to solve the following error: https://gist.github.com/alexszilagyi/9af822682c4cded4d29ba8a757de557d#file-replace-rb-L18 ?
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[16:51:16] impermanence: allisio: wow. that makes sense.
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[17:01:28] allisio: elsevero: Your config file is ill-formed, but that's about as much as can be said at this point.
[17:02:10] elsevero: allisio: it seems this https://github.com/fastlane/fastlane/issues/227#issuecomment-139449487 fixed the issue. I had to update the system variable
[17:02:32] allisio: elsevero: Ah. Glad you got it sorted.
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[17:50:49] zquad: Can someone help me with this ruby bash script? https://pastebin.com/BwsHTr2g I'm trying to get the variable `org` in that ruby string at the end of line 4
[17:50:51] ruby[bot]: zquad: we in #ruby do not like pastebin.com, I reposted your paste to gist for you: https://gist.github.com/f02a0b9ab368a800b7ef3635894237d5
[17:50:51] ruby[bot]: zquad: pastebin.com loads slowly for most, has ads which are distracting and has terrible formatting.
[17:52:20] havenwood: zquad: If you want to see your shell variable in a subprocess you're going to need to export it.
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[17:52:46] havenwood: zquad: By convention, exported environment variables should be SCREAMING_SNAKE_CASE.
[17:52:54] havenwood: export ORG="test"
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[18:17:00] tentacle: How does one control the lookup for inheritance? If I have a module with a "Base" class, then within that module, another module with a Base class, anything inheriting from that nested Base class (class Foo < Base) is trying to inherit from the top level Base class. Is there a way to do this without specifying the full nested Base class path?
[18:17:30] tentacle: It only seemed to become a problem once I switched to 2.3.3
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[18:18:19] matthewd: tentacle: Are you using Rails autoloading, perchance?
[18:18:32] tentacle: matthewd: this is being primarily used within Rails, yes
[18:18:45] matthewd: tentacle: http://guides.rubyonrails.org/autoloading_and_reloading_constants.html#when-constants-aren-t-missed
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[18:19:19] tentacle: matthewd: thanks, just odd that it started doing this once I switched to 2.3.3
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[18:20:45] tentacle: quite possibly a fluke, thanks
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[18:22:20] matthewd: Yeah, it comes down to whether Base is first referenced inside A::B (in which case it'll work), or inside A (in which case it won't) -- so it could be that you're accessing things in a different-than-usual order while doing post-ruby-update testing, or.. etc.
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[18:23:56] tentacle: matthewd: that looks to be the case :)
[18:24:03] tentacle: matthewd: thanks!
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[18:45:51] stupidsenpai: Do we need to know how to build a chess game in order to be good programmers?
[18:47:08] elomatreb: Not necessarily the chess part, but it's a good beginners app
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[18:58:22] dminuoso: statelesscode: let's put it this way, if you dont know how to make a chess game, you are probably not a decent programmer. ;-)
[18:59:23] matthewd: * given documentation of the rules/mechanics of chess
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[19:21:30] username1: is File#flock atomic between processes?
[19:21:37] username1: im trying to establish an interprocess lock
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[19:25:34] allisio: username1: That's the whole point of the method?
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[19:26:20] username1: allisio: the documentation isnt very clear
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[19:30:11] dminuoso: username1: avoid flock, its annoying to use.
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[19:36:57] atmosx: Hello, anyone familiar with libvirt lib? I'm getting paranoid, there's no way to actually *start* a predefined VM https://libvirt.org/ruby/api/Libvirt/Domain.html#method-i-resume
[19:37:24] atmosx: err here https://libvirt.org/ruby/api/Libvirt/Domain.html - doesn't make sense, I there's a method for every call except the most common
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[19:41:24] atmosx: it's the "create" method... "Call virDomainCreate to start an already defined domain." ...
[19:44:40] baweaver: dminuoso *grumbles about en passant rules*
[19:46:17] baweaver: Unless the job is for a board game company though, making a chess app is reaching
[19:46:26] baweaver: make something domain specific
[19:46:52] baweaver: ACTION dislikes interview questions that aren't immediately relevant to the position
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[19:54:00] atmosx: baweaver: Apparently interviewing is a never ending hot topic
[19:54:13] dminuoso: baweaver: Oh man. I remember a chess tournament once, I actually managed to turn it around with an (to me) unexpected en-passant possibility. When I took that pawn, he stared at me and started smiling because he thought I did something dumb and was forced to touch move..
[19:54:35] dminuoso: It was the first time he had even heard about en passant, suffice it to say he was pretty mad after that round..
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[20:05:00] allisio: I like to get a pawn across and exclaim "King me!".
[20:05:27] lagweezle: Well, possibly. What if you hate chess and never learned anything of depth about the game?
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[20:06:44] StoneCypher: baweaver: it's not terribly uncommon to ask something too large to see how someone attacks planning and initial implementation
[20:07:45] cseder: I love chess
[20:08:23] cseder: i play on chess24 with the same nick as here. Challenge me?
[20:08:51] lagweezle: I know how the pieces move, and that's about it. I don't know how castling works, but I know it's a thing...
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[20:12:32] cseder: it's a thing, for sure. So is En Passant!
[20:13:17] matthewd: lagweezle: Right, hence "* given documentation of the rules/mechanics of chess"
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[20:17:32] lagweezle: cseder: So uh, what is En Passant?
[20:17:34] nofxxx: lagweezle, if there's no pieces between king and tower, and you never moved each... you can swap em
[20:17:40] lagweezle: Or is the exclamation mark part of the name?
[20:19:43] nofxxx: chess was 'europerized' for audience, I want to print an chinese one... bishop -> archery, queen -> master of war
[20:20:06] nofxxx: makes more sense also
[20:21:47] StoneCypher: chess is from india, not china
[20:23:06] nofxxx: StoneCypher, along with the grain of rice per square thing? always taught it was chinese...thanks
[20:23:21] StoneCypher: the grain of rice per square thing is just an apocryphal story
[20:23:25] baweaver: It's fine to ask architectural questions
[20:23:40] baweaver: but if you're an AWS shop hosting game servers you should probably ask about that
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[20:25:28] lagweezle: ACTION misses playing mah jjong. *Not* the solitaire BS.
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[20:29:50] cseder: I have a beautiful Majjong game on my MacBook
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[20:30:34] lagweezle: Do tell? Although the feel of the tiles and building the walls is ... oddly enjoyable.
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[20:32:36] cseder: Its called Mahjong Elements HD and is quite enjoyable
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[20:35:34] lagweezle: Oooh. That's the 'solitaire' game that has the same name of the actual game. :/
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[20:46:32] cseder: What's the real Mahjong game like?
[20:46:47] lagweezle: I've never played Rummy, but I've had folks compare it to that...
[20:47:52] lagweezle: Four players, proceeds from one player to the next. Draw tile, try to make 3 of a kind, 4 of a kind, or a run of three (or some more 'interesting' hands), discard a tile. Next person's turn.
[20:47:59] lagweezle: Although the rules are ... a bit more complex than that.
[20:49:25] lagweezle: Oh ... and to make it "more fun" there are actually ... I'll say three different mah jjong rules. Chinese, Japanese, and the horrible thing that is American style Mah Jjong.
[20:51:06] lagweezle: Trying to find a video but ... so far they are all pretty awful.
[20:51:30] lagweezle: https://youtu.be/tRCb_LOkEmQ isn't terrible.
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[20:53:47] lagweezle: Actually, seems like a good explanation of the basics. The video goes a bit slow for my preferences, but I'm familiar with the game so ... it's probably about right for an introduction...
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[20:57:01] StoneCypher: cseder: it's a bidding and betting game based around making sets, kind of rummy-ish
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[20:58:13] cseder: Aha, ok. Looks enjoyable!
[20:58:57] StoneCypher: it's one of those games where the quality of the opponents matters a lot (in the way that it does for bridge)
[20:59:00] cseder: looks like Rummy!
[20:59:24] cseder: Rummy on acid! ;)
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[21:01:00] cseder: Never seen the real Mahjong as a board game anywhere where I come from, but probably available via Amazon or something
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[21:01:46] cseder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_zW3RJIi7s isn't too bad
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[21:02:50] StoneCypher: i mean just play a non-solitaire app version. it's a major game to the chinese, the way poker is to us
[21:03:02] StoneCypher: but you need three friends
[21:04:08] cseder: three friends?! Way over my limit.
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[22:34:17] lagweezle: https://www.ymimports.com/pages/mahjong-buying-tips
[22:34:38] Radar: !ban lagweezle
[22:34:38] ruby[bot]: +bbb $a:lagweezle$#ruby-banned lagweezle!*@*$#ruby-banned *!*@unaffiliated/lagweezle$#ruby-banned
[22:34:38] ruby[bot]: ruby[bot] kicked lagweezle: offense, see http://ruby-community.com/pages/user_rules
[22:34:40] ruby[bot]: -bbb *!*@65.88.88.156$#ruby-banned cuckingfunt!*@*$#ruby-banned *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.172.56.7.55$#ruby-banned
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[22:38:32] baweaver: !unban lagweezle
[22:38:32] ruby[bot]: -bbb $a:lagweezle$#ruby-banned lagweezle!*@*$#ruby-banned *!*@unaffiliated/lagweezle$#ruby-banned
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[22:39:03] Radar: lagweezle: wb
[22:39:08] baweaver: good to go then, sorry about that
[22:39:09] Radar: apologies again
[22:39:16] lagweezle: I ought to have provided context.
[22:40:58] Radar: I should've scrolled up.
[22:41:24] StoneCypher: warns are the traditional way to prevent this
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[22:42:12] Verity: what is ruby a poor choice for
[22:42:28] matthewd: Verity: Talking to serial ports ;)
[22:42:34] lagweezle: Oh, so, anyways. If you end up actually wanting to get a mah jongg set, https://www.ymimports.com/pages/mahjong-buying-tips will likely prove helpful, if minimal. Alternatively, http://a.co/3k2Lmsp provides a huge amount of information, quite in depth. I *can* recommend that book to learn about the game.
[22:42:44] ytti: from my POV, complex projects
[22:42:46] ytti: long lived processes
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[22:43:05] lagweezle: That's what I ought to have posted instead of just a link for the message. Anyways, back to Ruby things.
[22:43:38] ytti: (like other interpreted, dynamically typed languages)
[22:43:55] havenwood: Verity: It's not a good esoteric language. Way too straightforward.
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[22:44:21] cseder: Verity what kind of question is that? You're kidding / trolling right?
[22:44:54] Verity: no, I'm just comparing and contrasting
[22:44:57] baweaver: They've been around before.
[22:45:05] StoneCypher: Verity: high performance software
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[22:45:11] cseder: Ruby is one of the best languages to combine with C
[22:45:16] StoneCypher: Verity: you wouldn't want to write an operating system, database, cutting edge FPS, etc in ruby
[22:45:41] cseder: what? it is!
[22:46:22] ytti: basically interpreted, dynamically typed languages are great for tackling smaller projects faster
[22:46:31] Radar: ytti: who are you even talking to?
[22:46:33] ytti: but dividents quickly become taxes
[22:47:10] ytti: Radar, replying to verity's question
[22:47:26] Radar: ytti: perhaps include Verity's name in your replies?
[22:47:47] Verity: I knew he meant me due to the context :)
[22:48:05] Verity: I appreciate the replies
[22:49:11] cseder: Verity You can use the RubyInline or FFI gems to include C code directly into your Ruby code.
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[22:50:57] ytti: cseder, how is it better than say rust or nim for using C libraries?
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[22:51:36] Verity: it certainly reads better to me at first glance
[22:51:55] cisco: has joined #ruby
[22:52:34] cseder: ytti Verity I've been programming since 1993 in various programming languages and when it comes to Ruby I'm just a beginner, but the more I learn the more I enjoy it. It's the most pleasant programming language I've ever used and now I'm porting as much code as possible over to Ruby
[22:52:49] volty: what's best is getting the things done, and possibly with pleasure (of the beloved language)
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[22:53:49] Verity: cseder, I'm having a similar experience except I'm much newer to coding
[22:54:11] cseder: It sounds cliche but Ruby really is a FUN programming experience once you get to understand and use blocks in a correct way
[22:54:29] volty: as for the "what's poor for" - like questions, they should be sent back, and kindly asked to ask an advice in the style "I would like to do this, this, and this. Is Ruby nice for that? "
[22:54:32] cseder: blocks is sent from heaven
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[22:54:42] cseder: blocks are sent from heaven?
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[22:55:59] Radar: blocks're?
[22:56:16] cseder: If you have $25 to spend, use it on this course about blocks in Ruby: https://pragmaticstudio.com/ruby-blocks
[22:56:57] cseder: It was the course I used to really understand how to use blocks in a creative way
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[22:57:48] Verity: this is my feeling
[22:57:52] Verity: ruby is just enjoyable to code in
[22:57:58] volty: but if you are creative yourself you can do it alone
[22:58:27] cseder: Highly recommended videos even if you "think" you understand blocks and iterators
[22:58:30] ytti: memory debugging isn't fun in ruby :/
[22:58:36] ytti: at least not in mri, jvm maybe much better
[22:58:48] cseder: ytti not often you need it though...
[22:58:49] ytti: but compared to how easy it is in say golang
[22:59:15] ytti: (i don't like golang otherwise, just great ecosystem/tooling)
[22:59:31] volty: memory debugging what for ?
[22:59:33] cseder: Doesn't RubyMine from Jetbrains come with a good debugging interface?
[23:00:01] ytti: volty, when the software uses more memory than you expect it to use
[23:00:03] Verity: I purchased "the ruby programming language" I'm hoping that will help me go from beginner to intermediate now
[23:00:18] Verity: rubymine I can get free but I don't want to lock myself into software that wont be free when I graduate so I've been using vscode
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[23:00:33] Verity: it does look nice, though
[23:00:40] Verity: very feature rich, if you need it
[23:01:15] Verity: my serial program uses 99-100% cpu when sending, is that normal
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[23:01:26] cseder: I've never heard of memory debugging in Ruby to be honest. Do you mean like just debugging to see what goes where in memory?
[23:01:42] volty: ytti: then you should better work on your expectations ?
[23:01:45] ytti: cseder, i mean trying to figure out why the software uses more memory than you expect it to use
[23:02:15] matthewd: Verity: It shouldn't be.. but as it's a fairly obscure thing to do, it's possible it's the library's fault rather than your code
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[23:02:22] ytti: volty, it's easy to write bad code which leaks memory
[23:02:24] cseder: ytti maybe it's the IDE your using and not the Ruby code you're running
[23:02:31] matthewd: Verity: Gist your current state?
[23:02:35] ytti: cseder, this isn't novel situation
[23:02:57] volty: ytti: for the high level langs the introspection should be enough
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[23:02:59] ytti: cseder, it's not odd for ruby or python developer to need to figure out why program uses more memory than it should
[23:03:02] StoneCypher: cseder: dude he means like memory leaks and etc.
[23:03:20] StoneCypher: cseder: high level languages don't magically get out of programmer errors relating to memory use
[23:03:22] Verity: matthewd, I don't have laptop with me at the moment but I'll post it when I get home later, I noticed the fan spinning up when sending a large file and I checked with htop and noticed 99% usage
[23:03:38] Verity: this was on a c2d laptop
[23:03:56] Verity: sending and receiving using two usb to serial adapters
[23:04:10] Verity: I connected rx to tx with some jumpers
[23:04:10] ytti: in some senses it's easier to leak in high level OO languages
[23:04:21] ytti: if you're not careful where your state lives
[23:04:31] ytti: you may keep putting object references here and there
[23:04:39] ytti: and ultimately have no clear idea what is your state
[23:04:53] Verity: so I shouldnt just assume the gc takes care of everything?
[23:04:58] matthewd: Is it really leaking if the application still knows how it's being used & can access it?
[23:05:08] ytti: gc will only collect if object isn't referenced
[23:05:15] matthewd: That sounds more like memory "use" than memory "leaks"
[23:05:19] cseder: ytti StoneCypher well aware of that, but I call that just debugging or memory optimisation, not memory debugging
[23:05:23] ytti: but it's easy to have complicated tangle of instances refering to each other
[23:05:43] volty: no way if your design is modular . dispose as soon as you don't need
[23:06:07] ytti: yeah, i would opt out of doing long-lived python/ruby processes
[23:06:21] cseder: best way to avoid it is to learn how to use blocks correctly! :) The videos I posted links to is a great start
[23:06:26] ytti: then you mostly don't have to care about the problem
[23:06:41] ytti: and this is how some large ruby shops have fixed their problems
[23:06:46] ytti: just kill workers when they get too large
[23:06:52] Verity: that doesnt sound like the best fix
[23:06:52] ytti: and not care about the programming mistakes causing them
[23:06:55] Verity: but what do I know
[23:07:04] ytti: best may be enemy of done
[23:07:48] Verity: cseder, I just purchased "the ruby programming language, covers 1.8 and 1.9
[23:07:54] Verity: will this teach me blocks well? or will I still need the video
[23:08:09] Verity: is this an advanced topic to study later or try to master it early
[23:08:12] volty: Verity: go with the book, more than enough
[23:08:22] allisio: Blocks are essentially what make Ruby Ruby.
[23:08:23] cseder: Verity is it the PickAxe book?
[23:08:29] volty: (for now, and forever - - that all the rest will depend on yourself)
[23:08:37] cseder: allisio true
[23:08:38] Verity: its a book by the ruby author, I think
[23:08:46] Verity: ykihiro matsumoto
[23:08:55] allisio: No, not quite.
[23:09:02] volty: I had it from pragmatic programmers
[23:09:07] allisio: He "divinely inspired" it, in a sense.
[23:09:08] cseder: Verity, ok, not the Pragmatic Programmer PickAxe book?
[23:09:24] Verity: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596516178.do
[23:09:25] Verity: that book
[23:09:31] Verity: I hope its not too obsolete for the current ruby
[23:09:34] Verity: before I begin to read it
[23:09:59] allisio: How come you're still picking a book?
[23:10:18] volty: the same goes for spoken languages -- just start and breath the spirit of the language
[23:10:39] Verity: allisio, I've been finishing up a C book before I read this one so I still had some time
[23:10:44] cseder: Ok, It's a good book, but I'd recommend the PickAxe book: https://pragprog.com/book/ruby4/programming-ruby-1-9-2-0
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[23:11:00] Verity: I'll take a look at that, cseder ty
[23:11:17] allisio: Oof. I somehow conflated "The Ruby Programming Language" with "Programming Ruby". :<
[23:11:17] cseder: It's like the de-facto standard for learning Ruby
[23:11:18] ytti: i would probably not bother reading any material which assumes 1.8
[23:11:36] StoneCypher: "i call memory leaks memory optimization" (sigh)
[23:11:47] allisio: cseder: I reckon that title probably goes to "Eloquent Ruby" for programmers with some prior experience.
[23:11:54] cseder: StoneCypher lol... didn't mean exactly that
[23:12:31] nofxxx: StoneCypher, "In ruby evertyhing is an object, in haskell everything is a function, in C everything is a segfault"
[23:12:44] StoneCypher: nofxxx: cleaning keyboard begins now <3
[23:12:45] cseder: allisio probably... Still working through the PickAxe
[23:13:02] volty: in c everything is a speed
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[23:13:26] allisio: A velocity.
[23:13:45] nofxxx: volty, pff... assembly guys disagree with you
[23:14:04] volty: yes, but they are too slow to write
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[23:14:53] volty: and calculate too - because you need to do some calculus for the sake of choosing the fastest instructions
[23:15:13] cseder: https://pragprog.com/book/ppmetr2/metaprogramming-ruby-2 also a good book I've started reading.
[23:15:21] volty: and they are already beaten by the calculus made by the compiler
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[23:15:52] volty: yes, valid for the best compilers
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[23:17:04] volty: I am giving a look at scala. Anybody here with some experience with scala?
[23:17:36] cseder: I've programmed in both C and C++ as a living for many years and sometimes I miss the relatively low level way of programming, but now I'm going all-in for Ruby and Rails
[23:17:44] allisio: volty: baweaver seems to be the resident Scalar here.
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[23:17:46] volty: Their channel is full but mute. They must be lost in functional
[23:17:50] allisio: I assume that's not the appropriate demonym, though.
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[23:19:04] allisio: To mean "a user of Scala"? Surely not.
[23:19:36] volty: Me, as a beginner, just scared
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[23:19:55] allisio: Just dive in.
[23:20:00] cseder: The last developer job I had was using C# and .Net, which is also getting pretty good, but as said, its Ruby all the way now, I hope! I quit my job so I could work as a freelancer and the market for Rails is pretty good
[23:20:05] allisio: Alternatively, take the time to realize that Ruby is surprisingly functional.
[23:20:23] cseder: allisio true! It is.
[23:20:33] lupine: heh, just as everyone's bailing
[23:20:47] volty: I know enough of Ruby
[23:21:03] cseder: I learned Lisp many years ago :)
[23:21:58] cseder: I think I used it once for understanding how a AutoCAD plugin was working
[23:22:02] volty: I gave it a look and escaped. I hate Python because of formatting (among others). I used to like Haskel (as a beginner), but then realized that it's utterly useless
[23:22:35] volty: scala seems amusing and promising
[23:22:37] cseder: Haskell isn't useless, but it has a limited scope compared to Ruby
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[23:23:04] volty: imho haskell is totally useless. there's a video on yt where his creator states the same
[23:23:06] ruby[bot]: It's popcorn time! 🍿🍿🍿
[23:23:21] cseder: volty that is meant as humor
[23:23:37] volty: not at all! Watch the video
[23:23:42] cseder: but not everyone understands haskell humor
[23:23:44] Radar: link or ban
[23:24:00] volty: google yourself
[23:24:05] Verity: I did, couldnt find it
[23:24:06] Verity: where is link
[23:24:12] Radar: volty: You think I'm not serious?
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[23:24:20] allisio: has joined #ruby
[23:24:29] volty: Radar: what do you mean by "not serious"?
[23:24:29] cseder: volty you think you're serious, but you are wrong
[23:24:34] Radar: !ban volty
[23:24:34] ruby[bot]: +bbb $a:volty$#ruby-banned volty!*@*$#ruby-banned *!*@host232-238-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it$#ruby-banned
[23:24:34] ruby[bot]: ruby[bot] kicked volty: offense, see http://ruby-community.com/pages/user_rules
[23:24:37] Radar: !unban volty
[23:24:38] ruby[bot]: -bbb $a:volty$#ruby-banned volty!*@*$#ruby-banned *!*@host232-238-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it$#ruby-banned
[23:24:47] Radar: next topic please.
[23:24:48] StoneCypher: Radar: i don't understand why that just happened
[23:24:52] Radar: Take this to #ruby-offtopic
[23:24:55] Radar: [09:23:50] <Radar> link or ban
[23:25:00] StoneCypher: Radar: not criticizing, just don't want to make the same mistake myself
[23:25:08] Radar: StoneCypher: I asked for a link, I didn't get one.
[23:25:52] cseder: I think he is referring to a joke made by Haskell's creator in a talk once
[23:26:05] Radar: If you're going to be making grandiose statements like that then I would expect you to back it up with evidence.
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[23:26:35] sumobob: have you all checked out a cool micro framework called hanami? I spent the weekend playing with it, i was wondering the ruby communits thoughts, compared to something like roda
[23:26:42] Radar: Link to the damn video and EVEN BETTER link to the timestamp of where he said it.
[23:27:23] volty: slowly, just for the pleasure
[23:27:24] cseder: Do you think it's a good idea to learn Sinatra before jumping aboard Rails? Seems to be a debate
[23:27:45] allisio: Radar: Weird thing to get so bent outta shape about, but here ya go: https://youtu.be/iSmkqocn0oQ?t=36
[23:27:50] StoneCypher: cseder: doesn't make a big difference either way. might as well, just so that you can speak to preferences from experience.
[23:27:54] cseder: It's both based on Rack, but is it a good path?
[23:27:57] allisio: SPJ was, of course, being humorously self-deprecating.
[23:27:58] havenwood: sumobob: I think Roda is to Sinatra as Hanami is to Rails.
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[23:28:08] matthewd: sumobob: Isn't Hanami's claim that it's *not* a microframework, but "Rails done right"?
[23:28:13] Radar: allisio: I was very not bent out of shape. I was having fun and it was misconstrued.
[23:28:29] allisio: Misconstrual is a door you have to open.
[23:29:00] Radar: cseder: Sinatra is a much more light-weight framework compared to Rails. It's a pretty good starting place.
[23:29:04] cseder: That's a restaurant where I come from
[23:29:11] volty: yes, that is the video. As for the rest, go and try doing something in Haskell (I mean beyond folding and mapping) . A gui app, among other examples
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[23:30:42] ytti: allisio, quite often when i try to do something very functional in ruby, like recursing instead of looping, i run out of stack depth
[23:30:57] cseder: Radar ok. I'll check that out first. I have no web development background, mostly systems programming and desktop applications, so web development is new to me
[23:31:02] allisio: ytti: Does a demonstrative example immediately spring to mind?
[23:31:15] allisio: We'll ignore that Ruby can be made to do TCO for the sake of your present argument.
[23:31:21] cagomez: has joined #ruby
[23:31:26] ytti: allisio, def foo; foo; end; foo?
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[23:31:37] allisio: ytti: You do things like that for... what?
[23:32:04] allisio: At least, that doesn't look like it answers to the description of "very functional" to me.
[23:32:15] havenwood: ytti: Sounds like a case for #require_relative_with_tco there!: https://gist.github.com/havenwood/3c5a5e1476c811460992
[23:32:55] ytti: allisio, it can be low as 2k in my experience, which is easy to hit in practical sitautions
[23:32:57] cseder: Hanami looks interesting
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[23:33:30] ytti: havenwood, right, that seems like it would make ruby more functional
[23:33:38] chichou: has joined #ruby
[23:33:44] allisio: ytti: Is it?
[23:33:56] Radar: cseder: It is very interesting :) It's an entirely new take on how to do web applications in Ruby.
[23:34:11] cseder: And the webpage is a beauty
[23:34:12] Radar: cseder: I think it's also more lightweight than Rails as well.
[23:34:21] ytti: but OO and functinal are not good marriage anyhow, in functional you keep variables immutable, functions don't have side-effects. In OO it's idiomatic to quite freely modify objects
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[23:34:42] cseder: Radar is it also built on Rack?
[23:34:42] allisio: Mutation is not inherently part of object-orientation.
[23:34:45] Radar: cseder: yup
[23:34:50] Verity: maybe I should check out hanami instead of sinatra
[23:34:56] Verity: for my first web framework w/ ruby
[23:34:58] Radar: cseder: Rack is the common API that all Ruby frameworks use.
[23:35:18] Radar: Just skimming through Hanami's Getting Started guide and it looks great :D
[23:35:18] cseder: Aha... I'm such a noob
[23:35:20] havenwood: Verity: More like check out Roda instead of Sinatra. Check out Hanami instead of Rails. ;-P
[23:35:31] Radar: cseder: it's ok. We were all noobs once.
[23:35:49] havenwood: cseder: Try writing a simple Rack app and running it with: rackup
[23:36:24] cseder: So the new Sinatra -> Rails could become Roda -> Hanami
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[23:36:38] volty: no, that is only a matter of polarization oo vs functional. what oo needs isn't the REAL object of a REAL class, but just the syntactic behaviour of the oo
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[23:36:54] havenwood: cseder: It's a worthy exercise. You'll quickly see with pure Rack apps why people go on and use a Rack adapter like Roda, Sinatra, Hanami or Rails.
[23:36:54] Radar: I thought Roda was only a router.
[23:36:58] volty: what oo programmer needs i meant
[23:37:23] cseder: havenwood haha, ok, I'll give it a go
[23:37:56] havenwood: Radar: Yeah, core Roda is about a thousand lines and is primarily just the addition of a routing tree on top of Rack. Then you compose a framework from Roda's plugins.
[23:38:24] havenwood: The one file that makes up core Roda: https://github.com/jeremyevans/roda/blob/master/lib/roda.rb
[23:38:33] havenwood: And the plugins: https://github.com/jeremyevans/roda/tree/master/lib/roda/plugins
[23:39:11] havenwood: There are other ecosystem gems like Rodauth: http://rodauth.jeremyevans.net/
[23:39:16] cseder: I quit my job to learn and specialise in Ruby, RubyMotion and a Web Framework so I can do freelance jobs. I got tired of programming in C# and Visual Studio and hacking on old Borland C++ code
[23:39:25] havenwood: But the plugins do combine to form a real framework. It's quite nice.
[23:39:34] allisio: You're quite nice.
[23:39:43] havenwood: Why thank you. ;-)
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[23:41:29] ytti: allisio, yeah i'd say it's pretty common to deal say with lists with over 2k items
[23:41:32] cseder: So, wish me luck in my new career
[23:41:57] ytti: allisio, which you'd deal with recursive function in purely functinal langauge, but in ruby you probably shouldn't, unless you know the size is bounded to low number
[23:42:11] StoneCypher: ytti: are you presuming tail recursion?
[23:42:19] ytti: allisio, in purely functional language there wouldn't be call stack, so there isn't similar technical bound at all
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[23:42:37] ytti: StoneCypher, yes
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[23:43:35] StoneCypher: ytti: tail recursion isn't all that common in functional languages. my gut says 50/50
[23:43:57] matthewd: Verity: I'd personally recommend starting with Rails -- it's more complicated than other simpler options, but it's also widely documented etc
[23:43:58] StoneCypher: mostly just in things that descend from lisp, ml, oz, or prolog
[23:44:15] matthewd: (but I'm not exactly impartial)
[23:44:23] ytti: StoneCypher, but even without tail recursion, as there isn't call stack, the number is something silly
[23:44:36] ytti: StoneCypher, something where you'd be more worried about the size of your list probably
[23:45:24] StoneCypher: things without tail recursion (and with) generally still need a call stack.
[23:45:31] StoneCypher: even though they're fp.
[23:45:42] StoneCypher: very, very few languages are stackless.
[23:46:01] StoneCypher: and they tend to be radically different things, like sql and css
[23:46:37] StoneCypher: you can still blow the call stack on a language with tail recursion; it's just a lot more difficult
[23:47:40] ytti: StoneCypher, i would guess it's magnitude where you worry about the size of what you're iterating
[23:47:55] ytti: StoneCypher, where as in ruby, you run into the limit in quite trivial numbers
[23:48:12] StoneCypher: iteration won't do it in any language. iteration is an alternative to recursion
[23:48:21] ytti: as i'm sure anyone has noticed who tries to write recursive functions instead of loops in ruby
[23:48:33] ytti: and then just give up and use loops, as intended
[23:49:13] volty: iteration is recursion in bottom-up fashion
[23:49:26] StoneCypher: ... no, it isn't
[23:49:34] StoneCypher: they can be used to solve the same jobs, but they aren't cases of one another
[23:49:36] ytti: you keep stack size same
[23:49:47] ytti: regardles of eleent count in what you're itereating
[23:49:51] ytti: so it's fundametnally quite different
[23:50:08] ytti: 1. call, 2. return, 3. call, 4. return ...
[23:50:21] volty: you solve the same problem, often keeping :"manual stack:
[23:50:26] ytti: 1. call 2. call 3. return 4. return
[23:51:03] StoneCypher: volty: by that logic, css and xslt, or sql and mongo, are forms of one another
[23:51:10] StoneCypher: volty: or vhs and dvd
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[23:52:18] volty: ah ah, not at all, it's presentation vs trasformation vs organization vs algorithm
[23:52:30] allisio: volty: https://eval.in/773984
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[23:52:57] allisio: I guess the "smart" there counts as maintaining a "manual stack", but it's not cumbersome.
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[23:55:55] volty: look, I am a bit fuzy now but I try it in few words --- all those (almost all) functional purists attribute absolute value, without proving the same value. the truth is that we humans often get tired and fuzzy, and need breaks, and need to trace slowly etc etc. With recursions you can get lost. With manual tracing (stack) you can do it in the end.
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[23:58:36] volty: of course you can grasp recursions on single lists and trees, but when it comes to more complex interactions between objects, you easily get lost and frustrated. Otherwise the very intelligent functionals would already have produced something with no-matched values.
[23:59:07] volty: My motto is "do it as you please, and do not bite me with purism"