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#ruby - 16 September 2017

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[00:00:45] Algebr: yea, downloading those now
[00:01:08] havenwood: Algebr: If you use chocolatey, just: choco install ruby ruby2.devkit
[00:02:49] Algebr: and then I'll be able to also write ruby C extensions as well?
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[00:09:45] imode: how do I remove a gem with its dependencies?
[00:10:59] Radar: imode: you can't. You have to remove each gem individually.
[00:11:23] Radar: Don't know why you'd want to do that. The dependency may be a dependency of another gem.
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[00:11:56] matthewd: There's `bundle clean`, but that has limited use cases
[00:11:59] imode: Radar: it's not, because I didn't realize heroku's gem CLI was deprecated. it pulled its own dependencies.
[00:12:06] imode: which I don't want.
[00:14:14] imode: guess I'll just have to be careful. it's all clean now, but that's mildly infuriating.
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[00:19:05] havenwood: imode: Your gems have dependencies that have dependencies.
[00:19:32] havenwood: imode: With how RubyGems currently works it's not possible to tell which can be removed without borking other things.
[00:19:54] imode: that's kind of irritating, considering my system package manager can do that. :P
[00:20:05] havenwood: imode: Which package manager?
[00:20:29] matthewd: To be fair, most system package managers only grew that ability relatively recently
[00:20:42] imode: define recently.
[00:20:48] havenwood: yeah, those and others have the concept of explicitly-installed versus installed as a dependency.
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[00:21:13] havenwood: imode: it's something RubyGems could add but it doesn't exist
[00:21:17] matthewd: Less than half of lifetime
[00:21:28] havenwood: imode: most language package managers don't have the feature
[00:21:29] imode: arch has had it pretty much since the beginning.
[00:21:43] imode: havenwood: pip does from python, npm does...
[00:21:51] imode: I think. don't quote me on npm.
[00:21:55] matthewd: imode: Patches welcome
[00:22:00] havenwood: imode: pip?!?
[00:22:08] havenwood: imode: hah, well...
[00:22:14] havenwood: that's hardly something to admire
[00:22:20] havenwood: pip doesn't let you update installed packages
[00:22:23] imode: heh, yeah. it's kind of a disaster an- yeaaaah.
[00:22:28] imode: wait, no it does.
[00:22:34] havenwood: it has very little going on, so it's easy to uninstall on a package level
[00:22:36] imode: when was the last time you used pip?
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[00:22:50] havenwood: it didn't have a way to update all installed packages
[00:22:55] imode: what version, because I just recently updated all my packages.
[00:23:02] havenwood: does it now? it hasn't for as long as i can remember
[00:23:11] havenwood: maybe 7 years after the PR they finally merged it?
[00:23:23] havenwood: in any case, pip is... not groundbreaking
[00:23:28] imode: it certainly isn't.
[00:23:37] imode: python in general is kind of ugly in terms of execution.
[00:24:28] havenwood: imode: It's an interesting idea to add to RubyGems. I think the first step would be differentiating explicitly-installed gems somehow.
[00:24:45] imode: yeah, you'd have to store some kind of internal flag.
[00:24:51] imode: perhaps different directories.
[00:25:13] havenwood: different directories seem problematic because many would be in both categories
[00:25:30] havenwood: odd to have dups
[00:25:37] havenwood: implicitly installed before explicitly installed, etc
[00:26:04] imode: but that could be solved by a simple mv.
[00:26:30] havenwood: maybe just a list of those explicitly installed
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[00:27:41] havenwood: also note many of the package managers can show packages without dependants but not those that have been manually installed
[00:29:39] havenwood: there's not always a difference but there can be
[00:32:28] havenwood: i guess you could do a RubyGems uninstall feature that uninstalled packages that are and the dependency tree of something that lost a dependant in the unintsall. It's not straightforward.
[00:33:39] havenwood: **lost a dependent and have no other dependants
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[00:36:55] Radar: Weird to be talking about Heroku CLI like it's a Rubygem. I thought the latest version was a node.js package.
[00:37:31] havenwood: Radar: I think it's even mostly Go, unsure. The API parts oddly seem to still be Node.js.
[00:37:36] havenwood: They seem to be working on it quite a bit, because there are frequent releases.
[00:37:43] matthewd: Radar: > I didn't realize heroku's gem CLI was deprecated
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[02:26:57] havenwood: What's a good name for an auto-scheduled fiber? There's got to be something better than "Thriber"...
[02:26:58] havenwood: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/13618
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[02:29:36] Salmonidae: but reads too much like 'A Fiber'.
[02:29:45] havenwood: AutoFiber seems reasonable.
[02:30:02] Salmonidae: yeah. Thriber seems okay once you put it together.
[02:30:27] Salmonidae: Kind of thread, kind of fiber.
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[02:32:33] Salmonidae: i dunno if the emphasis on thread is worth it. not really up to date with the issue. but sounds like a Fiber that schedules itself autoatically. that's not really very similar to a thread.
[02:33:32] Salmonidae: it seems to be the only property they share.
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[02:37:48] Salmonidae: sounds more complicated than just that
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[02:39:34] veex: havenwood: yielder??
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[02:43:08] Salmonidae: `thriber: green threads implemented using fibers`. i think commit message says a lot.
[02:49:46] veex: or just `yields`
[02:51:43] veex: Salmonidae, I like thriber too, it's catchy. thought about `fibert` but a quick search yields it's a family name :)
[02:52:45] Salmonidae: `Yields` as class name is bit strange. i guess. i think Thriber is fine too. Fred might be a bit too much. but i'd accept FredFlinstone.
[02:54:29] Salmonidae: luckily i have no say in these matters
[02:55:45] veex: Me neither as you already know, saw someone asking for suggestion and thought I'd contribute too!
[02:56:17] veex: I like Yielder and Thriber should I be an user of either!
[02:56:18] Salmonidae: ah no. i just meant FredFlinstone would be too weird.
[02:56:39] Salmonidae: Same. should be cool
[02:56:50] veex: Forgive my ignorace, I don't really know where you got FredFlinstone from??
[02:57:19] Salmonidae: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Flintstone
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[02:59:35] veex: That reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Quagmire
[02:59:51] veex: Sth new to me, thanks for sharing. We're diverting off topic
[03:00:12] Salmonidae: hm. character-wise they don't sound similar.
[03:00:39] veex: No they don't for sure.
[03:01:55] Salmonidae: yeah. not really a family guy fan. the depth isn't there.
[03:04:54] veex: I'm not a fan either but some episodes to make me lol. Trying to practice equal distribution for laughter, lol.
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[03:06:58] Salmonidae: you're off balance
[03:07:27] veex: Forgive me I think havenwood might think we're sidetracking.
[03:08:00] Salmonidae: if he does he'll speak, i'm sure
[03:08:26] veex: :) I'm pretty new here. Hope that doesn't bother you.
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[03:10:56] Salmonidae: nope. doesn't bother me.
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[03:20:08] PorcoRex: Good night.
[03:20:14] PorcoRex: Or morning.
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[03:23:45] PorcoRex: tamouse__, night.
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[03:25:12] veex: Salmonidae: good talking. watching Fred and laughing :) Thanks for sharing.
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[03:58:14] raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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[08:03:45] teatime: hmm... these aren't equivalent, are they? (10 - (x % 10)) % 10 and 10 - x % 10 % 10
[08:04:33] teatime: I would like to remove redundant parens from the former, if there are any.
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[08:08:09] teatime: ah, k.. 10 - (x % 10) % 10 <-- seems to be what I want
[08:08:19] matthewd: teatime: You can drop the inner parens, but you can also just `-x % 10`
[08:10:07] teatime: oh, nice, perfect, thanks. that was bugging me :)
[08:10:27] teatime: that makes my actual code, then:
[08:10:31] teatime: -digits.map.with_index{ |d,i| (i%2==0) ? d : d*3 }.reduce(:+) % 10
[08:11:15] teatime: that leading unary - would be easy for a reader to miss, but not worth changing it to -( )
[08:13:01] teatime: hrm, could make it: -1 * digits…
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[08:13:26] matthewd: You could also put it inside the map block
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[08:16:37] matthewd: z = -3; digits.map {|d| d * z ^= 2 }.reduce(:+) % 10
[08:16:47] matthewd: .. don't actually do that ;)
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[11:09:06] maesitos: Hello I'm at the 14th chapter of The grounded Rubyist and there's something I don't understand. Could anybody take a look at this example and let me know why one works while the other doesn't? https://pastebin.com/raw/mh16Kspj
[11:09:07] ruby[bot]: maesitos: we in #ruby do not like pastebin.com, it loads slowly for most, has ads which are distracting and has terrible formatting. Please use https://gist.github.com
[11:09:59] maesitos: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/2144447fda0524e8615e89669c371db2
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[11:37:37] mistnim: how do I run a system command so that if my ruby script exits it will continue to run?
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[11:39:29] Salmonidae: fork. but you will collect zombies.
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[11:40:52] Papierkorb: mistnim: There's the `daemons` gem. But instead, consider using a daemon process manager, like systemd (which you probably already use on your linux box), instead of rolling this yourself.
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[11:41:24] Salmonidae: probably you need to rethink what you're doing. what Papierkorb said sounds right.
[11:41:48] Papierkorb: mistnim: You get monitoring, easy access, permission management, and much more for free this way. On top of that, this knowledge isn't bound to ruby, you can use it with anything you like :)
[11:42:12] Salmonidae: but not systemd. im not sure. sounds overkill. maybe a ruby daemon that can spawn processes for you. script that can exit be its client
[11:42:39] Papierkorb: Systemd is perfectly fine if you already use it anyway. It's the de facto standard
[11:42:42] mistnim: Salmonidae, what do you mean collect zombies? Even if the forked process ends?
[11:42:45] teatime: (pid = fork) ? Process.detach(pid) : exec("foo") <-- this seems concise and correct?
[11:43:10] Salmonidae: but doesn't Process.detach just spawn a thread to collect its status?
[11:43:25] teatime: mistnim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_process
[11:44:22] teatime: Salmonidae: looks like.
[11:44:42] Salmonidae: im not sure if that's enough if you don't Thread#join too at exit
[11:49:43] teatime: Salmonidae: I think it is, that seems to be the purpose of it. It can hold the exit value in Ruby waiting for you to maybe eventually join the thread, but it looks like it goes ahead and waitpid's your child immediately so that it can leave the process table upon termination.
[11:50:21] Salmonidae: im not sure if that is what mistnim wants or not. Thread#join implies waiting.
[11:50:38] Salmonidae: but good to know
[11:50:45] teatime: mistnim: also, if the parent script is short-lived / expected to terminate, the children will be inherited by init (PID 1), and it will waitpid/clear them. The children can only be zombies while your parent script is running.
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[11:51:41] Salmonidae: but it is not a good practice or habit to not collect status.
[11:51:42] teatime: Salmonidae: If you don't care about the return value, just never join the thread, right? that's what I gathered from the docs. I will happily defer to your mad Ruby skillz, though, for I am a n00b.
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[11:52:43] Salmonidae: i am saying that. the question is: "how do I run a system command so that if my ruby script exits it will continue to run?". if you Thread#join, you don't exit.
[11:53:22] teatime: yeah, I was just wondering if that's what you were getting at.
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[12:01:26] teatime: Salmonidae: I tried it out; seems to work (ruby script can exit immediately, if it does not exit subprocess does not become defunct, if it does exit subprocess is inherited by init)
[12:02:30] teatime: maybe I misunderstood tho
[12:04:10] Salmonidae: dunno if it is the approach i'd take. i would rather another ruby process taking responsibility of "init". but for this use case it's most likely fine
[12:07:03] Salmonidae: another process allows you query state of spawned processes, and so on. you could use `Process.detach` there too, then just the threads.
[12:07:12] Salmonidae: collect the threads
[12:08:10] teatime: I do agree that if what you need a process supervisor, you should probably use a good, existing one, esp. since there's already one running on the box (systemd)
[12:08:26] teatime: s/need a/need is a/
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[12:08:31] Salmonidae: yeah. i think ruby has some too. 'god'. 'eye'.
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[12:11:25] Salmonidae: dunno if they can spawn via IPC though. i think you describe processes first and then it manages them. so not quite the same.
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[13:34:03] mustmodify: I'm doing a presentation about Rails to a developer meetup. Hard to understand, but I've repeatedly had people ask me "What is Rails?" I thought I'd devote half my time to Ruby and half to Rails. I know a ton about Ruby. I love Ruby. But I'm having a hard time thinking of exactly how to express what I love about Ruby in small examples that will be digestable to non-Ruby devs. Obviously blocks are a big thing. The actual classes, unlike js, php etc. Classes
[13:37:07] Salmonidae: Proc, exhibit closure-behaviour. dynamic method dispatch (method_missing). dynamic constant dispatch (const_missing/const_get). monkey patching. modify code at runtime. meta programming.
[13:37:41] teatime: mustmodify: perhaps some examples of tight-but-clear expressions/oneliners.. the kinds of things Perl does well, Ruby does also
[13:37:58] mustmodify: yeah, what would be a good, simple example of method missing that didn't make me seem like frankenstein?
[13:38:01] Salmonidae: not sure what else. oh. x = Object.new; def x.bar(); end; this method of programming as opposed to classical.
[13:38:14] mustmodify: I mean, I love method missing. But I worry people would be like, "You can't just do that... "
[13:38:33] Salmonidae: sure. i thought that too. all those features make ruby slow. so know your audience a little bit.
[13:38:46] mustmodify: good thoughts. Thanks.
[13:39:16] mustmodify: I think I can do about half an hour on that stuff. Makes me want to do a full presentation on Ruby. :)
[13:39:57] Salmonidae: cool, best of luck with it
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[15:09:43] veex: mustmodify: where are you presenting?
[15:12:12] bougyman: anyone know why curl would work on a box but ruby (rest-client) gives SSL Verify Fail?
[15:12:24] bougyman: I didn't think I had to recompile ruby to get new certs.
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[16:30:12] RedNifre: bougyman I was to lazy to figure out what the problem is so I just did `curl ...` instead.
[16:31:19] bougyman: RedNifre: I had to rebuild ruby
[16:31:20] bougyman: doesn't make a lot of sense, but whatev
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[16:38:33] havenwood: bougyman: probably needed to dynamically link against your new openssl, and you do need to rebuild for that
[16:38:49] bougyman: that's my thought.
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[16:38:58] bougyman: but I figured I would get an error other than invalid cert, for that.
[16:39:00] bougyman: no worries.
[16:39:03] bougyman: fixed is fixed.
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[18:01:00] haylon: What should I read about to learn how to make a Rake task gem
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[18:02:47] haylon: I kind of undertand how to make a Thor task in a gem
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[18:24:57] havenwood: haylon: oldie but goodie: http://jasonseifer.com/2010/04/06/rake-tutorial
[18:25:51] haylon: Well, I want to make a gem that I could require into a Rakefile and have it populate tasks. I'm not sure exactly I need
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[21:22:27] tamouse__: ACTION waves o/
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[21:57:36] baweaver: tamouse__: ohai pontiki
[21:58:24] baweaver: Writing me some RSpec tutorials
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[21:59:17] baweaver: Found a new metaphor for TDD: It's a maze. You start at the outside (acceptance tests) and work your way inwards (integration, unit), discovering the implementation as you go until you reach the center (the application)
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[22:00:45] baweaver: havenwood: what do you make of that one.
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[22:27:31] tamouse__: a maze that hasn't been constructed yet?
[22:27:35] Slinky_Pete: how do I stop test/unit from exiting after a flunk, shouldn't it notice the flunk and run the next line?
[22:28:53] Slinky_Pete: Ex. assert_equal(true, false, flunk) after it is exiting without running further tests
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[22:29:37] baweaver: Probably hidden in some fail-fast option
[22:29:48] baweaver: I'd have to hunt it down, but fail fast is what it's called
[22:30:02] matthewd: The currently-running test will stop once it's failed an assertion
[22:30:28] matthewd: Fail-fast affects whether other tests are still attempted
[22:30:43] matthewd: But the line after a failing assertion will never be executed
[22:31:12] baweaver: tamouse__: More of that you start at the outside of your app (API / UI) and discover it as you get in deeper. You have to discover the outer API before you can know how you expect parts to integrate before you know how the individual units of it will work
[22:31:15] baweaver: If that makes any sense
[22:31:46] tamouse__: how would that happen if there's no app yet to discover?
[22:31:57] Slinky_Pete: Okay thank you.
[22:32:24] baweaver: Then what are you even building?
[22:32:25] baweaver: I've noticed that the less I know what it is I'm trying to make the more of a mess I make in the interim
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[22:32:54] tamouse__: then maybe it ins't TDD
[22:33:01] baweaver: The outside would be something like I expect when I click this button it'll give me a cookie
[22:33:17] baweaver: As to how that happens, that's not quite relevant until I know what I expect it to do at a top level
[22:33:57] baweaver: It may be a bit more abstracted from it. More of rubber-ducking random musings at this point
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[22:35:54] tamouse__: i'm still a bit partial to the notion of levels, shells, and particls/atoms/molecules/organisms
[22:37:47] baweaver: care to share tamouse__?
[22:39:51] tamouse__: well, levels, like we used to talk about in top-down design you start at the top and work your way down through levels, spreading out
[22:40:34] tamouse__: shells is similar, but is usually depicted as circles wrapping circles
[22:41:58] tamouse__: the lattermore organic, you have a organism to test, and then it's "organs", suborgans, the molecules, the atoms, and particls that make that all up
[22:42:26] tamouse__: it's still the same concept, outside-in, top-down, macxro-to-micro
[22:42:47] tamouse__: sorry, typing is sucky todauy, very laggy
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[22:43:35] tamouse__: i don't think your maze metaphor is really different in kind
[22:44:24] baweaver: Not a problem
[22:44:24] baweaver: trying to refine some ideas. Teaching an entire RSpec course at work and the first segment is on Thursday.
[22:45:02] tamouse__: hmm, maybe a suggestion: use a few metaphors without really trying to explaikn them overmuch
[22:45:12] tamouse__: give people different things to hang the concepts on
[22:47:17] baweaver: I'll probably just start with unit testing, getting guard running, and keeping functions simple
[22:47:34] baweaver: Then some on stubbing/mocking in base Ruby
[22:47:45] tamouse__: keep it very practical
[22:47:48] tamouse__: i like that
[22:48:42] baweaver: But I may well intro with this is the broad overview
[22:48:54] baweaver: and here's the circle we're going to focus on today
[22:49:09] tamouse__: sounds good
[22:49:21] baweaver: The next few classes will work outside the circle
[22:49:30] baweaver: You seen Westworld yet?
[22:50:25] baweaver: You know how tests are usually a pyramid diagram of Unit > Integration > Acceptance?
[22:51:19] tamouse__: i have not :/
[22:52:52] baweaver: Take that pyramid and extrude it into a circle with Acceptance > Integration > Unit > Application
[22:53:24] baweaver: Turns out that's what BDD is. Was looking at terms again to make sure
[22:54:02] tamouse__: i think that lines up with teh notion of "shells". that's what i thought of when reading the cucumber book ages ago
[22:54:24] baweaver: I may make a test formatter later that reflects this appropriately
[22:54:40] baweaver: Like you're focusing on a given scenario and all its descendant functions
[22:55:00] baweaver: So you see all three groups of tests executing as children of the next level up
[22:56:01] baweaver: e.x. Scenario click button to get a cookie > button triggers dispenser & dispenser fetches cookie & factory gives cookie to dispenser > factory makes cookie....
[22:56:24] baweaver: So you can see it like a tree where certain tests are natural descendants of their parents
[22:57:16] baweaver: Why it'd be useful: You broke a unit so it'll point to the broken scenario and red flag the entire path down to it, isolating where the break happens and what it got up the chain
[22:57:28] baweaver: Of course now I'm just rambling a bit :P
[22:58:00] tamouse__: well, ok, but that would be p.useful
[22:58:23] baweaver: I may screw around with some things and try and make it
[22:58:54] baweaver: It'd rearrange the heck out of testing though. Think pods for tests
[22:59:22] baweaver: pods being a frontend concept where the component, route, model, and other pieces of a single concept are in one folder, like User Menu
[22:59:57] tamouse__: like apotonick's trailblaizer concepts?
[23:00:24] baweaver: Wasn't that the Rails re-org thing?
[23:00:44] tamouse__: but the ... ahem ... concepts were good
[23:00:53] tamouse__: i'm using them in my react client
[23:00:54] baweaver: Yeah, basically that for tests
[23:01:16] baweaver: Then make the test runner reflect it as it goes down the tree of functionality
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[23:06:36] baweaver: Well off I go, be back in a bit
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