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#ruby - 28 November 2017

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[00:27:43] soulisson: Hi, in ruby a block starts with the "do" keyword, right?
[00:29:21] soulisson: SeepingN: so do and "{" are considered part of the block from the syntax point of view?
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[00:31:36] basket: soulisson: Why do you ask?
[00:31:58] soulisson: basket: just to know
[00:32:22] basket: soulisson: do/{ and end/} are to a block as [ and ] are to an array
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[00:38:17] soulisson: basket: so the answer for me is yes, because without those, we wouldn't have a block
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[00:42:39] soulisson: basket: I just said that like that I guess someone might disagree
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[00:45:31] baweaver: Na, that one's fairly straightforward
[00:45:48] soulisson: baweaver: what do you mean?
[00:46:06] baweaver: There's not really anything to disagree on
[00:46:28] soulisson: baweaver: ok, do you agree with what I said earlier
[00:46:44] baweaver: ....you realize you're running circles here right?
[00:47:00] soulisson: baweaver: probably, I'm not right in my mind :)
[00:47:24] baweaver: Blocks are either `do ... end` or `{ ... }` or passed in directly to the method with an `&`
[00:47:55] soulisson: baweaver: cool, this is clear
[00:47:59] baweaver: >> double = -> x { x * 2 }; [1,2,3].map(&double)
[00:48:00] ruby[bot]: baweaver: # => [2, 4, 6] (https://eval.in/908783)
[00:50:39] pragmatism: Why won't it eval?
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[00:52:34] baweaver: you have to be registered / logged in
[00:53:37] baweaver: I guess authenticated would be the more proper term
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[00:57:22] chiggins: Are there any good Gems out there for doing conversions between various cryptocurrancies?
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[01:08:56] pragmatism: Not that I'm aware of. That would be a pretty easy scraper to write though
[01:09:04] pragmatism: good idea for an intro project
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[01:25:50] chiggins: Ended up finding this https://github.com/alexanderdavidpan/cryptocompare
[01:25:57] chiggins: Working like a charm for the most part :)
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[01:32:40] pragmatism: That's legit.
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[01:49:49] basket: >> [1, 2, 3].reject &:even?
[01:49:50] ruby[bot]: basket: # => [1, 3] (https://eval.in/908784)
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[11:21:03] argoneus: are there any special requirements to overriding []=? for some reason my program doesn't work as intended and I can't figure out why
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[11:24:47] argoneus: my signature is def []=(*args), but for some reason when I do Grid[x] = 5 it doesn't get called at all
[11:26:48] argoneus: any idea why this could be?
[11:28:44] argoneus: oh, I'm an idiot
[11:28:53] argoneus: bla[x][y] is different from bla[x, y]
[11:28:59] argoneus: good to know
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[11:58:07] ineb: argoneus: yes, use #dig if you want. bla.dig(x,y) is bla[x][y]
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[13:11:54] Stan: can anyone recommend a gem/library/code to round a DateTime object to the nearest minute?
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[13:17:25] darix: stan: check active_support maybe?
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[14:52:55] dminuoso: ineb: Considering that ActiveSupport sets this on Hash rather than Object, that generally does not hold true.
[14:53:10] dminuoso: Also digf short circuits.
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[14:53:27] dminuoso: bla.dig(x,y) is bla&.[](x)&.[](y)
[14:53:39] dminuoso: For Hash anyway when AS is loaded.
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[18:13:26] coolno1: how to run a thin ruby server in threaded mode
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[18:14:03] coolno1: I have this code snippet and I want to make it multithreaded
[18:14:04] coolno1: thin_server = Thin::Server.new('127.0.0.1', config.port, signals: false)
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[18:14:34] coolno1: I can see that only way is to pass --threaded
[18:14:40] coolno1: How can I do the same for above
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[18:51:33] TomyLobo: coolno1, i dont know, have you read the help for Thin::Server's initializer?
[18:51:47] TomyLobo: rubydoc, regular documentation
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[18:52:13] dminuoso: havenwood, have you ever wondered why functional programming is not "the thing" to do in India?
[18:52:23] dminuoso: Didn't find an answer.
[18:52:45] baweaver: Same reason it isn't in the states
[18:52:59] baweaver: Schools teach Java, and most engineers are school to job, no extras
[18:53:29] dminuoso: "are school to job"?
[18:53:53] baweaver: They graduate school, get one job, stay there
[18:53:56] Kyle__: baweaver: Because it can be hellish to debug, most languages don't lend themselves towards it, and the need for side-effects means every language makes different choices for how pure it's FP is?
[18:54:07] Kyle__: s/it's/its/
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[18:55:25] baweaver: AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean
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[18:55:53] Kyle__: ACTION shudders
[18:55:56] dminuoso: baweaver, dont get me started.
[18:56:05] dminuoso: baweaver, I've managed to peek inside the Java code this company has been writing for our CRM tool. It's mindboggingly silly what kind of... "patterns".. they use.
[18:56:17] baweaver: hellish to debug is a side-effect of crap programming
[18:56:32] dminuoso: At times I wonder whether they just intentionally use sillily layered patterns to create the illusion of "complicated programs" to justify their high salaries.
[18:56:56] baweaver: Functional Programming is not inherently hard to debug
[18:57:10] dminuoso: Unless it is evaluated lazily.
[18:57:16] dminuoso: Then things get interesting. ;-)
[18:57:16] baweaver: you're just used to debugging in another paradigm
[18:57:23] Kyle__: baweaver: Granted, but the set of skills to know what is good and what isn't in imperative programming are different than in functional.
[18:57:45] Kyle__: dminuoso: lazy evaluation is amazingly fun :) Or at least, in haskell it is.
[18:57:46] baweaver: See "debugging in another paradigm"
[18:57:54] Kyle__: ACTION agrees
[18:58:06] Kyle__: ACTION wants to get back to haskell at some point.
[18:58:23] dminuoso: kyle__, indeed. Ive come to the conclusion that Haskell is incredibly easy to pick up. The main difficulty is not that the language is difficult, its just that its very *different*
[18:58:33] baweaver: of course a Java person will hate Haskell off the bat. It's completely antithetical to everything they know, especially around debugging.
[18:58:57] baweaver: So the further you learned into that camp the harder it is to see the other side clearly
[18:59:05] baweaver: conversely true as well
[18:59:14] baweaver: Haskell programmers tend to hate Java
[18:59:16] dminuoso: kyle__, I just started to step into dependent types (yes you can have them in Haskell too!). It made me wonder how I could ever live without them.
[19:00:16] baweaver: Ruby is pretty well in the gateway drug category of FP
[19:00:17] baweaver: Same with Javascript
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[19:00:30] Kyle__: dependent types?
[19:00:44] Kyle__: I've never heard of those.... wonder if it's one of those things I've used and didn't know the right name for.
[19:00:51] dminuoso: kyle__, for example: zipWith (+) [1] [1,2]
[19:00:52] dminuoso: this will type check.
[19:00:56] dminuoso: It really shouldn't.
[19:01:23] dminuoso: Its the reason why things like head and tail seem to universally useful but are really bad to use
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[19:02:17] dminuoso: Its very unlikely you have "accidentally used dependent types in Haskell". Formally they are not supported, and it takes some encouragement to gain them
[19:02:17] baweaver: Then again dminuoso is bent on making Ruby into Haskell so...
[19:04:56] dminuoso: kyle__, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNa3MMbhwS4 check this out.
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[19:36:30] RickHull: dminuoso: I think java hell comes from a side effect of java handcuffs. There is so much boilerplate and restrictions on expression that it's hard to *design* programs
[19:36:48] RickHull: instead they use an accretion and agglomeration model
[19:37:26] RickHull: a little bit of code doesn't do very much, and we need to do more, so we add more code
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[19:38:18] RickHull: take fresh grads from a degree mill, and they have little design sense to start with -- little ability to question "is this the right approach?"
[19:38:49] dminuoso: RickHull, when I started teaching ruby to a 14 year old kid from a friend last week, he ended up making mistakes like: a + b = c ["Why doesn't c contain the sum? Ive just stated that they are equal"]
[19:39:06] dminuoso: Think I need to pull the plug on Ruby and teach him Prolog.
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[19:39:28] RickHull: it's a great way to get a holistic design perspective
[19:39:30] dminuoso: Or maybe Haskell
[19:39:37] JaccoP: that was a nice challenge for me
[19:39:43] RickHull: but this example is just a confusion of assignment with definitional equality :)
[19:39:54] JaccoP: it´s supposed to be == huh
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[19:39:58] dminuoso: RickHull, honestly most math teachers dont understand the difference between reduction and equality either
[19:40:06] dminuoso: for example: 1 + 3 is definitely not equal to 4.
[19:40:23] RickHull: interesting, haven't considered that perspective
[19:40:27] dminuoso: they may be extensionally equivalent in some context.
[19:40:27] RickHull: i could see that it reduces to 4
[19:41:16] RickHull: what about 1x + 3x = 4y ?
[19:41:22] RickHull: or 1x + 3x = 4x
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[19:41:57] dminuoso: RickHull, Im not talking about the = sign. Math is generally heavily overloaded, so characters always mean different things in different contexts.
[19:42:04] Algebr: How can I monkey patch stdout's put?
[19:42:06] dminuoso: But if the teacher said "they are both equal" then he's just straight lying to you.
[19:42:38] dminuoso: I mean mostly its fine. But it does limit your way of thinking.
[19:42:57] JaccoP: I´m confused
[19:43:08] JaccoP: since when does 1 + 3 not equal 4 anymore
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[19:43:26] RickHull: Algebr: are you calling e.g. $stdout.puts ?
[19:43:39] dminuoso: JaccoP, one is an addition of two numbers, one is a number. A simple way of seeing how they are not the same, is write a parser to generate a CST
[19:43:46] dminuoso: And compare the CST for both expressions (1 + 3) and (4)
[19:43:50] dminuoso: Those two trees will be different.
[19:43:57] JaccoP: that makes sense
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[19:44:12] Algebr: yea, like I want to keep a handle on the original puts but still be able to provide my own implemtnation
[19:44:17] RickHull: Algebr: you can `def $stdout.puts` or `class IO; def puts`
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[19:45:40] RickHull: dminuoso: by that logic, x + y = z shows no equality?
[19:45:57] dminuoso: RickHull, in the context of algebras it shows extensional equivalence.
[19:46:22] dminuoso: or its a statement "the reduction of both produce values that are equal to one another"
[19:46:25] RickHull: i think that's what most people mean by equality, when they are doing algebra
[19:46:26] Algebr: RickHull: how do I hold onto the original puts?
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[19:46:42] dminuoso: RickHull, when I said algebras, Im using a different far more generalized notion.
[19:46:43] RickHull: Algebr: how would you like to call it?
[19:46:59] Algebr: as a global variable
[19:47:14] dminuoso: RickHull, so the thing you actually mean when you write 1 + 3 = 4 is: <dminuoso> or its a statement "the reduction of both produce values that are equal to one another"
[19:47:25] Algebr: I tried, $org = $stdout.puts, and then $org("Original given input") but that caused a error
[19:47:36] dminuoso: RickHull, how about this. What is equality?
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[19:47:58] RickHull: it depends on context, but when I learned algebra, we can say that z equals y + x
[19:48:07] RickHull: and with some more equalities
[19:48:10] dminuoso: RickHull, no please give me a definition what equality means.
[19:48:12] RickHull: we can pin down a value for z
[19:48:16] dminuoso: Without looking it up
[19:48:35] dminuoso: Just do it, because if we use the word "equality" and argue about it, we should define it first.
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[19:49:42] RickHull: I'm not arguing -- which definition do you have in mind?
[19:49:53] dminuoso: The only one that is sound: Equality is a relation that an object only has with itself.
[19:49:57] baweaver: Algebr: this sounds like a bad idea
[19:50:07] RickHull: dminuoso: that sounds like identity
[19:50:09] baweaver: Literally just open another IO stream and call puts on it instead
[19:50:27] dminuoso: RickHull, identity has a different notion altogether.
[19:50:58] dminuoso: RickHull, unless you're talking about identity relation.
[19:51:09] RickHull: if z represents a variable with an unknown value, and we know z's value equals the arithmetic sum of x and y
[19:51:22] RickHull: then what is an object?
[19:51:29] Algebr: RickHull: I also tried: org = method(:$stdout.puts), and then tried calling org but got `<main>': private method `puts' called for :$stdout:Symbol (NoMethodError)
[19:51:34] RickHull: and what is an equality in this sense, compared to an inequality, perhaps
[19:51:35] dminuoso: RickHull, we need to define what a relation is then..
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[19:52:32] RickHull: sure -- I'm interested in the theory -- but I don't think math teachers are lying when they talk about equalities like x + y = z
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[19:54:23] dminuoso: RickHull, for a set S and T, a relation α is a subset of S x T.
[19:54:35] RickHull: I believe these are traditionally known as equalities, particularly when we have several of them, and several variables of unknown value
[19:54:59] RickHull: and we combine them with algebra and arithmetic in order to discover or pin down the value of a variable
[19:55:13] dminuoso: RickHull, a good example to see the difference between equality and extensional equivalence is pure functions.
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[19:58:24] RickHull: wikipedia says there are 3 types of equality in math: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_(mathematics)
[19:58:36] RickHull: symbols, sets, and expressions
[19:58:55] ryakh: Is there any way to implement a method (foo_method from my example) so following can be achieved? https://pastebin.com/rwi9BSNa
[19:58:55] ruby[bot]: ryakh: we in #ruby do not like pastebin.com, it loads slowly for most, has ads which are distracting and has terrible formatting. Please use https://gist.github.com
[19:59:00] zanoni: why wouldn't this work? I'm searching through values in hash to find the key the value exists in - but nada 'myhash.find { |k,v| v =~/page=7/} `
[20:00:16] RickHull: >> { 1 => 2, three: :four }.find { |k, v| v.is_a? Symbol }
[20:00:17] ruby[bot]: RickHull: # => [:three, :four] (https://eval.in/909513)
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[20:02:51] zanoni: no i need to use regex, a value would contain that fragment
[20:02:54] RickHull: ryakh: your method will be called when the class is evaluated, not when Foo is instantiated
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[20:03:03] RickHull: zanoni: then I guess it's not matching
[20:03:24] Kyle__: baweaver: 6~/buffer 31
[20:03:28] Kyle__: ack, sorry
[20:03:35] zanoni: i mean it worked in a quick repl, but no now in the app
[20:04:10] RickHull: zanoni: construct a hash that you know will match. confirm the expected behavior. it sounds like you've already done this
[20:04:27] RickHull: if it doesn't work in the app, then the hash doesn't have a matching value
[20:04:47] zanoni: i mean regex could be a fragment right?
[20:04:58] RickHull: a fragment of what?
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[20:05:12] zanoni: of the entire value i'm looking for
[20:05:15] RickHull: open up irb
[20:05:19] RickHull: construct a value
[20:05:21] RickHull: try your match
[20:05:25] Brondius: Is there a reason there are no Ruby packages available for the Atom text editor?
[20:05:51] RickHull: zanoni: and yes, a regex need not match an entire string
[20:06:00] zanoni: ok, i'll go back to irb with it,thanks!
[20:06:05] RickHull: >> 'foobar'.match %r{.}
[20:06:06] ruby[bot]: RickHull: # => #<MatchData "f"> (https://eval.in/909514)
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[20:09:02] tobiasvl: Brondius: I'm not familiar with Atom, what would a Ruby package for Atom do?
[20:09:28] RickHull: I think Atom is github's web editor
[20:09:31] RickHull: based on Electron?
[20:09:51] Brondius: tobiasvl there are packages for Atom in tons of languages that make writing whatever it is easier. I just saw nothing for Ruby
[20:09:52] RickHull: i don't know what a "ruby package" would be for this
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[20:10:14] tobiasvl: Brondius: OK, so plugins that make Atom into an IDE of sorts for different languages?
[20:10:15] RickHull: i would think that ruby is one of the first languages supported, out-of-the-box
[20:10:18] Brondius: Auto completes and other such things for Python and stuff
[20:10:27] Brondius: Correct, tobiasvl
[20:10:59] RickHull: https://atom.io/packages/search?q=ruby
[20:11:10] tobiasvl: Brondius: https://github.com/atom/language-ruby ? https://atom.io/packages/ide-ruby
[20:11:27] Brondius: Huh. Weird. Searching from within the client shows nothing. My bad.
[20:11:31] tobiasvl: I just googled "atom ruby"
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[20:28:38] dminuoso: 21:11 Brondius | Huh. Weird. Searching from within the client shows nothing. My bad.
[20:28:40] dminuoso: Thats very reassuring.
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[20:59:30] darix: apple made a good evening even better
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[21:10:07] baweaver: darix: that's the topic of the day in ruby-offtopic
[21:10:26] darix: topic of the day already? it is just 2.5hours old!
[21:10:48] baweaver: you overestimate the amount of interesting content in offtopic
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[22:03:58] Algebr: I found alias_method, and I use it as alias_method :a, :b but how can I use it when I want to get it on $stderr.puts?
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[22:10:21] Prutheus: Hey. I have a 10.times do |i| ... end block
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[22:10:31] Prutheus: I need to do a retry when i == 3
[22:10:45] Prutheus: but its an invalid retry there...how to retry in such block?
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[22:19:35] RickHull: prutheus: retry is for exception handling
[22:19:52] RickHull: please paste a code example, even if it's not behaving how you want
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[22:34:48] Prutheus: just mapped the content of the loop inside a begin block and raises at some point an exception which can retry then
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[22:41:18] gheegh: hey all, anyone know of a good tool to do this: https://eval.in/909535 basically, i want to define a template of a string, and extract data from that string using that template.. (like npm-router does)
[22:43:09] RickHull: gheegh: regex
[22:43:25] RickHull: much more general purpose than that but well capable
[22:43:30] cschneid_: I need to write a very-high-performance mini parser, are there any guides on spinning over medium length strings, and avoiding allocations? Logically I can do stuff like `input.split(" ").first` and have a case statement on that, but that allocates at least 2 strings, and I need to skim until some known points in the middle of the string as well
[22:43:43] cschneid_: basically, what in string manipulation & lookup actually allocates
[22:44:11] RickHull: cschneid_: VHP in ruby seems ...
[22:44:28] RickHull: are you concerned about object allocation or memory?
[22:44:40] cschneid_: RickHull: allocation & memory pressure
[22:44:47] cschneid_: gc time, not overall usage
[22:45:00] RickHull: object allocation determines gc stuff
[22:45:01] gheegh: RickHull: I'm trying ot build something more generic, editable.. than building Regex expressions
[22:45:24] RickHull: gheegh: are you building such a tool? or looking for an existing one?
[22:45:25] cschneid_: RickHull: I know about performance. tl;dr - trying to do basic sql parsing to fingerprint sql down to pretty simple things like `Select User` and `Update Account` and such.
[22:45:30] RickHull: for the former, you can build it with regex
[22:45:47] gheegh: looking for one
[22:45:59] gheegh: it's implemented alreday a few places.. like in Rails routing..
[22:46:04] RickHull: gheegh: yep, i'd look there first
[22:46:06] gheegh: where you pick up data from the string
[22:46:28] cschneid_: but I don't know what parts of the String api create brand new string objects vs not. And how to minimize that gc time
[22:46:31] gheegh: but everywhere i've found it so far is either in Javascript or the Rails router
[22:46:47] RickHull: cschneid_: every string operation will create a new object, generally
[22:46:50] RickHull: particularly with frozen strings
[22:47:19] RickHull: cschneid_: if I were you, I'd build it cleanly and correctly, then profile and optimize
[22:47:29] cschneid_: RickHull: right, so something like `input.each_char { mystatemachine }` would create a ton of 1 char long string objects as it spun through right?
[22:47:43] gheegh: i'm suprised if there isn't a gem out there arleady that does this
[22:47:57] RickHull: gheegh: I don't know rails well enough to spit out the answer
[22:48:01] RickHull: but it can't be that hard to find
[22:48:48] RickHull: cschneid_: I would say it's going to be hard to predict before profiling
[22:48:58] cschneid_: RickHull: yeah - I'll go try a few ways and see
[22:49:10] RickHull: it's possible that lots of tiny objects will have better gc performance than fewer big ones -- no idea
[22:49:35] cschneid_: yeah, there are those tipping-point string lengths (31 chars or something?) that may come into play, and ... yeah, who knows :)
[22:49:53] cschneid_: will be interesting, it's a pretty simple problem conceptually, just our app is doing a lot of it, so want to make sure it's speedy enough
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[22:55:20] RickHull: cschneid_: my info is in the realm of educated guesses here, so take with a grain of salt, regarding string object allocations. I'm fairly certain that profiling, gathering data, and making adjustments is better than predictions
[22:55:26] RickHull: and keep in mind "frozen strings"
[22:55:54] cschneid_: RickHull: what version of ruby were those frozen-string changes made? Its sorta recent?
[22:56:15] cschneid_: there was the annotation first, then later it doing it automatically?
[22:56:57] RickHull: i'm about as fuzzy on it as you are :)
[22:57:33] cschneid_: When did the newer regex library land? That was 1.9 or 2?
[22:57:44] RickHull: oniguruma showed up in 1.9
[22:57:58] RickHull: just about anything that is in 2.0 landed in 1.9
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[22:58:21] cschneid_: I've been doing ruby too long :) Can't remember when any of these things happened.
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[22:58:27] RickHull: 2.0 was more about ceremony and establishing a reference for backwards compatibility
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[23:07:42] Prutheus: hey how can I get a variable be forced evaluated.
[23:08:02] Prutheus: I mean I do something like var_x = arrg[4].text
[23:08:21] Prutheus: but it wants to evaluate .text function only when i use that assinged var somewhere else
[23:08:35] Prutheus: but i need an assignment imediately when assigning
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[23:12:18] baweaver: prutheus: What's the full code there?
[23:12:24] baweaver: because Ruby does immediate assignment
[23:12:50] baweaver: so unless it's in a function or a block or inside an if conditional of some sort it will be immediately evaluated
[23:13:44] RickHull: prutheus: what happens when you do arrg[4].text in irb? or `puts arrg[4].text` ?
[23:14:48] Prutheus: it is because i use selenium
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[23:15:36] RickHull: prutheus: you'll have to check with selenium folks or else give more context -- this question makes no sense for ruby
[23:17:02] Prutheus: oh yeah right
[23:17:05] Prutheus: and it was also wrong
[23:17:12] Prutheus: there was an error caused by something else
[23:17:42] Prutheus: it got evaluated
[23:17:52] Prutheus: thanks anyway :D im in bed now, gn8
[23:18:05] RickHull: cheers -- it can be tricky when errors compound :)
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[23:44:00] dminuoso: RickHull: damn yeah!
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[23:44:10] dminuoso: ∀∈⦃⦄
[23:44:22] dminuoso: I can finally compose keys intuitively!
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[23:46:44] RickHull: is that first one for-every or at-least-one ?
[23:47:50] RickHull: i haven't looked at such symbols in a while. predicate logic? there exists at least one X such that ...
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[23:48:46] RickHull: "universal quantification" vs "existential quantification" maybe?
[23:49:01] dminuoso: Im populating my mappings. :-)
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[23:49:34] RickHull: make sure you have the desk-toss, tenderlove's face thing, and reddit-look-of-disapproval
[23:49:56] RickHull: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_quantification
[23:50:13] RickHull: propositional logic :)
[23:50:47] dminuoso: But yeah ∀ is for univeral quantification
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