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#ruby - 23 February 2018

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[00:03:34] keithy: ok, running some experiments...
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[00:05:30] zenspider: !fix chouh____
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[00:06:28] zenspider: !fixcon chouh____
[00:06:28] ruby[bot]: +bbbb chouhoulis!*@*$#ruby-fix-your-connection chouhoul_!*@*$#ruby-fix-your-connection chouhou__!*@*$#ruby-fix-your-connection chouho___!*@*$#ruby-fix-your-connection
[00:06:28] ruby[bot]: +bb chouh____!*@*$#ruby-fix-your-connection *!*@50-207-64-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net$#ruby-fix-your-connection
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[00:06:32] ruby[bot]: -bbbb *!*@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.81.7.9.167$#ruby-banned WHITEPRIDE!*@*$#ruby-banned THEKKKLAN!*@*$#ruby-banned *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.172.58.12.6$#ruby-banned
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[00:08:45] keithy: its working as expected! but somethings are a bit fragile… it doesnt make it through a whole disk
[00:09:04] keithy: ok… back to me other problem...
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[00:09:25] zenspider: keithy: you're burning up cred here with your not listening, not answering, etc.
[00:09:42] keithy: I listened I implemented
[00:10:00] keithy: I tested I approaved
[00:10:14] keithy: and now im back to trying to understand slpashes and blocks
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[00:12:17] zenspider: ACTION goes back to wrapping simpledns with a DSL
[00:12:51] keithy: thanks guys I am glad I asked
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[00:13:32] keithy: I think I missed that ‘prune’ option earlier
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[00:19:15] keithy: ok now that works lets look at the simpler options that you guys suggested
[00:20:29] keithy: My last argument was not expecting someone to try and turn it into a hash, it only knew to_str
[00:20:44] keithy: I think this must be a newer ruby idion
[00:20:56] keithy: idiom, variable numbers of argments etc
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[00:22:16] Radar: [11:09:25] <zenspider> keithy: you're burning up cred here with your not listening, not answering, etc. <- yeah this
[00:22:29] keithy: what are you talking about
[00:22:40] keithy: I listened to everything everyone said and I use their advise
[00:22:58] keithy: what more do you want
[00:23:45] Radar: [10:56:58] <havenwood> keithy: And you've tried using Find.find? Show us the code you have so far?
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[00:23:56] Radar: You didn't follow simple instructions. I was merely agreeing.
[00:24:14] keithy: hello I have used find find I have tested it on 1TB of disk and its does what you said
[00:24:26] Radar: Did you show us the code that you had so far?
[00:24:26] keithy: all since you guys suggested it
[00:24:52] keithy: then I thanked you for your help
[00:25:39] zenspider: and now defensiveness... cool
[00:25:52] keithy: aparently I cant win
[00:26:16] zenspider: and now martyrdom... I'm done
[00:26:24] keithy: now I go back to my original problem of trying to understand splats and args
[00:26:30] keithy: and I fised that as well
[00:26:48] zenspider: my explanation is still above and still stands
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[00:27:07] havenwood: keithy: If you run into issues understanding spats or blocks, so us the code where things went wrong and we can help.
[00:27:20] keithy: and you did
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[00:27:42] havenwood: Okay, if that resolved your questions, great!
[00:27:43] keithy: and I again I thank you for your help
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[00:28:02] havenwood: I thought you still had splats and blocks questions. If you don't, nevermind!
[00:28:18] keithy: I then said that I apparently ran into an issue which ruby I dont think ruby had 15 years ago
[00:29:26] keithy: but im not certain of that
[00:30:03] keithy: I admit im too tired for this now…
[00:30:55] havenwood: Sleep is like turning yourself off and back on again. It usually works.
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[00:38:51] zenspider: everything about splats and blocks (and block args) have been the same for the past 15 years.
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[00:39:58] keithy: variable numbers of arguments and optional arguments at both ends?
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[01:46:36] zenspider: how strange... I'm working on some code that generates an Enumerable via chunk_while... if I do `p x.to_a` some later code raises with ZeroDivisionError. If I comment that code out, it doesn't...
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[02:53:27] gnugnugnu: Hi, What does rbreadline package doesq
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[03:22:13] miah: https://rubygems.org/gems/rb-readline/versions/0.5.3
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[12:46:44] floppydh: Is there really a benefit for using symbols instead of just plain strings?
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[12:47:53] phaul: they are more light weight
[12:47:54] dminuoso: floppydh: Not really.
[12:48:13] dminuoso: floppydh: The real reason is just laziness.
[12:48:21] floppydh: dminuoso: laziness? how so?
[12:48:27] dminuoso: floppydh: one character less to type.
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[12:49:30] dminuoso: floppydh: The point that phaul made is valid, but it's not the real reason we actually do it.
[12:49:36] floppydh: phaul: they seem more heavyweight? - you hash each "string" and store both the interna-identifier and the string-name?
[12:49:44] dminuoso: floppydh: a symbol is just a number.
[12:50:13] dminuoso: (that happens to have a string representation)
[12:50:30] floppydh: hmmmm... one argument I heard is that it's there for semantics, because if you see a string, it could be a lot of things, but if you use a symbol, it limits the way they can be used?
[12:50:37] dminuoso: floppydh: as such comparing symbols is O(1), whereas comparing strings is O(n)
[12:50:38] floppydh: sounds reasonable
[12:50:43] floppydh: dminuoso: yeah that makes sense
[12:51:16] dminuoso: floppydh: inside of ruby the purpose of "symbol" is basically to identify things (where comparing to find a match is necessary)
[12:51:26] floppydh: but it seems highly questionable that string-comparisons are really a performance problem in your program and if performance matters why are you using ruby in the first place?
[12:51:29] dminuoso: methods and variables are two examples that are identified via symbols internally
[12:51:37] dminuoso: floppydh: it's just an internal optimization
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[12:51:52] dminuoso: the ruby team decided to just make it available
[12:51:56] phaul: I think symbols are semmantically different from strings. They serve different purpose, so the real reason is not a perfomrance optimization
[12:52:00] dminuoso: but the purpose of symbols is not for endusers.
[12:52:09] dminuoso: its for identifying methods and such
[12:52:12] dminuoso: for example
[12:52:16] dminuoso: asm>> a.foo
[12:52:17] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: I have disassembled your code, the result is at https://eval.in/961830
[12:52:44] floppydh: but you basically see them used everywhere no?
[12:52:53] floppydh: not just in the interpreter
[12:52:57] dminuoso: floppydh: dial it back a few years.
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[12:53:51] dminuoso: >> :foo.__id__ << 2
[12:53:52] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => 1802952 (https://eval.in/961831)
[12:53:57] dminuoso: floppydh: ^- this is the number that :foo represents
[12:54:02] dminuoso: if you want.
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[12:54:38] dminuoso: >> :foo.__id__ << 1
[12:54:39] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => 901476 (https://eval.in/961832)
[12:55:03] phaul: dminuoso: what was different a few years back?
[12:55:20] dminuoso: phaul: the "symbols are used everywhere in userland"
[12:56:25] phaul: hm. was metaprogramming all with Strings back then? I mean metaprogramming is all "userland" isn;t it?
[12:56:39] dminuoso: floppydh: the principle idea is this: ruby provides a function called rb_intern()
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[12:57:51] dminuoso: floppydh: that function has the signature: ID rb_intern(const char *)
[12:58:59] dminuoso: Which gives you a universal way of turning a string into an integer that can be compared with at O(1) complexity
[12:59:23] dminuoso: That mapping is referentially transparent, so every time you pass the same string, you get the same "number representation" back
[12:59:44] dminuoso: The class Symbol just reifies that ID
[13:00:07] floppydh: dminuoso: thanks for the lenghty explanation
[13:00:10] dminuoso: Giving you the "string look" while using the rb_intern mapping as the actual internal value
[13:00:21] floppydh: very insightful
[13:01:30] dminuoso: floppydh: Oh and the mapping is injective.
[13:01:34] dminuoso: That should go without saying.
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[13:04:08] dminuoso: phaul: The core difference is this: In order to compare two strings for equality you have to use #== which is O(n). #object_id wont work because
[13:04:16] dminuoso: >> "foo".object_id == "foo".object_id
[13:04:17] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => false (https://eval.in/961844)
[13:04:28] dminuoso: >> :foo.object_id == :foo.object_id
[13:04:29] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => true (https://eval.in/961845)
[13:05:35] floppydh: but I guess the semantics point still makes sense, when you see a symbol you know its used as a reference from/to something - a plain string alone would require additional context
[13:05:45] dminuoso: floppydh: strings are about data
[13:05:51] dminuoso: floppydh: symbols about identifying things
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[13:06:00] dminuoso: :foo for example identifies a method
[13:06:04] dminuoso: which is why
[13:06:10] dminuoso: >> Array.methods
[13:06:11] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => [:[], :try_convert, :new, :allocate, :superclass, :<=>, :module_exec, :class_exec, :<=, :>=, :==, := ...check link for more (https://eval.in/961846)
[13:06:13] dminuoso: Gives you a list of symbols
[13:06:17] dminuoso: They identify concrete things.
[13:06:22] dminuoso: They "name" things.
[13:06:38] dminuoso: So symbols are about naming things. Strings are just data.
[13:06:52] phaul: dminuoso: just what I wanted to point out. I think this is the key, the rest ie complexity is just implementation details
[13:06:55] dminuoso: >> Object.constants
[13:06:56] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => [:Object, :Module, :Class, :BasicObject, :Kernel, :NilClass, :NIL, :Data, :TrueClass, :TRUE, :FalseC ...check link for more (https://eval.in/961847)
[13:07:28] dminuoso: >> a = Struct.new(:a).new(1); p a.instance_vars
[13:07:29] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => undefined method `instance_vars' for #<struct a=1> ...check link for more (https://eval.in/961848)
[13:07:32] floppydh: I guess you can debate how much of a benefit they actually end up being in the semantics/context case, excluding implementation details
[13:07:41] floppydh: s/being/making
[13:08:02] floppydh: but I guess they do seem like a nice-to-have
[13:08:03] dminuoso: >> a = Struct.new(:a).new(1); p a.instance_variables
[13:08:04] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => [] ...check link for more (https://eval.in/961849)
[13:08:26] dminuoso: >> p Class.new { def initialize; @a = 1; end }.new.instance_variables
[13:08:27] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => [:@a] ...check link for more (https://eval.in/961850)
[13:08:38] dminuoso: floppydh: Even instance variables are referred to by symbols =)
[13:08:48] dminuoso: floppydh: but the "symbol" problem is that its just a reification
[13:08:58] dminuoso: In reality its just a number, Symbols reify that by giving us a string looking representation
[13:09:29] floppydh: reifications are good no?
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[13:10:28] dminuoso: floppydh: You can think of Symbol as a transparent access to the intern lookup table. =P
[13:10:51] dminuoso: :foo is something like rb_intern("foo")
[13:11:17] floppydh: so its basically syntactic sugar
[13:11:55] dminuoso: floppydh: More, because rb_intern is a C function.
[13:12:04] dminuoso: :foo basically exposes this in a nice fashion
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[13:15:23] dminuoso: floppydh: In reality Symbols are not even objects so
[13:15:35] dminuoso: Not real objects anyway
[13:15:53] dminuoso: Which is why you cant do things like
[13:15:57] dminuoso: >> :foo.singleton_class
[13:15:58] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => can't define singleton (TypeError) ...check link for more (https://eval.in/961851)
[13:18:52] phaul: but Symbol.ancestors.include? Object so Im a bit confused here
[13:20:57] phaul: also :foo.kind_of? Object. yet it doesnt behave like an Object.
[13:21:29] phaul: dminuoso: does it undefine the inherited methods? or how does that work
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[13:24:24] dminuoso: phaul: Well they exist as minimal objects on the heap
[13:24:35] dminuoso: phaul: but they are constraint like I have demonstrated
[13:24:43] dminuoso: >> def :foo.bar; end
[13:24:44] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => /tmp/execpad-8b70edea28fd/source-8b70edea28fd:2: syntax error, unexpected tSYMBEG ...check link for more (https://eval.in/961873)
[13:24:49] dminuoso: >> def (:foo).bar; end
[13:24:50] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => /tmp/execpad-9a98a6f2d029/source-9a98a6f2d029:2: can't define singleton method for literals ...check link for more (https://eval.in/961874)
[13:25:37] phaul: right, but where Im confused is method lookup on them. So does ruby implement a specail case for method lookups on Symbols?
[13:26:24] phaul: otherwise I don't see why they don't inherit from their ancestors
[13:28:44] dminuoso: phaul: Id have to check the source code first, Im not sure.
[13:29:41] phaul: dminuoso: ok, no worries:) thanks anyways
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[14:21:11] anjen: ey help 132316
[14:21:38] anjen: (a quick question about the debuggers gems)
[14:23:51] anjen: oh...duh nvm...I forgot it's still really early out west. I'll be back later.
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[14:56:54] Zaab1t: hey -- just getting into ruby. What are your favorite videos/talks?
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[15:00:46] phaul: Zaab1t: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2sgQ38UDVY
[15:03:21] NL3limin4t0r: Zaab1t: If you have a pluralsight account you should watch the "Ruby Fundamentals" cource.
[15:04:45] NL3limin4t0r: After knowing the fundamentals I learned the most by keeping the official ruby doc by hand. Every core object and method is explained in detail. https://ruby-doc.org/core-2.5.0/
[15:05:27] phaul: Zaab1t: also Katrina Owen here Be Dragons is very entertaining :)
[15:07:03] NL3limin4t0r: I also have a question, I'm searching for a equivalence operator, but can't seem to find it. Does anyone know if Ruby has one?
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[15:08:12] NL3limin4t0r: I basicly want that `true <operator> true` equals `true` and `false <operator> false` equals `true`.
[15:08:30] phaul: == does that
[15:09:36] phaul: nah, :) we all 'been there
[15:09:38] NL3limin4t0r: was sunken to deep into a problem
[15:10:24] NL3limin4t0r: I almost used the revesed XOR `true ^ !true` xD
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[15:17:29] dminuoso: Boolean algebra courses should be a requirement for learning programming.
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[15:23:51] Mike11: actually, reversed XOR is completely equivalent to the equal operator
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[15:34:47] Zaab1t: thanks phaul, checking them out!
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[15:41:39] phaul: Zaab1t: it's also worth looking for Jim Weirich (RIP) on youtube.
[15:42:54] phaul: he had a talk on rake and xml buildier which was cool
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[16:28:31] dminuoso: phaul: I wonder whether he is related to Stephanie Weirich.
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[16:37:00] phaul: dminuoso: I don't know
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[17:04:38] adgtl: Anyone wrote
[17:05:04] adgtl: anyone wrote Reactive web application with Ruby?
[17:05:22] adgtl: similar to Reactive Manifesto one?
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[17:13:24] havenwood: adgtl: Rails has ActionCable with WebSockets and fallbacks these days. Rails apps like Discourse prefer MessageBus, which is a similar channel but disfavors WebSockets.
[17:14:40] havenwood: adgtl: We use gRPC, which is worth looking at if you haven't: https://grpc.io/docs/quickstart/ruby.html
[17:14:53] havenwood: adgtl: https://grpc.io/
[17:15:53] havenwood: adgtl: It's Elixir not Ruby, but Phoenix Channels just got HTTP/2 support and deserve a mention: https://hexdocs.pm/phoenix/channels.html
[17:17:52] havenwood: adgtl: AnyCabe is an ActionCable replacement that uses gRPC with Protobufs over HTTP/2: https://github.com/anycable/anycable#readme
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[17:18:50] havenwood: adgtl: gRPC with Protocol Buffers over HTTP/2 seems like a nice way forward to me.
[17:19:26] havenwood: adgtl: An aside, but here's a pure Ruby implementation of the HTTP/2 protocol: https://github.com/igrigorik/http-2#readme
[17:21:19] havenwood: https://github.com/google/protobuf/tree/master/ruby#readme
[17:21:40] havenwood: https://github.com/grpc/grpc/tree/master/src/ruby#readme
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[18:21:48] Gnut: If i'm creating a ruby gem, is it okay to have multiple libraries or are they all supposed to be under the same parent namespace
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[18:24:05] havenwood: Gnut: A single lib/ directory with gem_name_here.rb and a gem_name_here/ directory: http://guides.rubygems.org/patterns/#consistent-naming
[18:24:09] havenwood: Gnut: http://guides.rubygems.org/make-your-own-gem/#requiring-more-files
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[18:24:57] havenwood: Gnut: Other Ruby files go in lib/gem_name_here/, for example: lib/gem_name_here/version.rb
[18:25:14] havenwood: Gnut: Which would be: GemNameHere::Version
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[18:25:41] havenwood: Gnut: If you take a look at a few gem's lib/ dir and sub-dirs you will see the pattern.
[18:26:14] havenwood: Gnut: For example: https://github.com/pry/pry/tree/master/lib
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[18:26:29] tomlukeywood: what dose :: mean in ruby?
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[18:26:42] havenwood: tomlukeywood: It's a namespace separator. It's used between constants.
[18:26:48] Gnut: Okay, so 1 parent namespace
[18:27:20] tomlukeywood: so what is its use here?:
[18:27:20] tomlukeywood: Net::HTTP.get('stackoverflow.com', '/index.html')
[18:27:22] havenwood: tomlukeywood: It also can signify calling a class method, but you'll probably see it a lot less for that these days.
[18:28:03] havenwood: tomlukeywood: module Net; class HTTP; end end
[18:28:45] havenwood: tomlukeywood: The Net module is a namespace that contains various classes like HTTP and FTP.
[18:28:51] dminuoso: havenwood: Fun fact - the lhs of :: can be an expression.
[18:29:07] tomlukeywood: dminuoso: what is lhs?
[18:29:10] havenwood: Or nothingness!
[18:29:29] dminuoso: >> Object.const_get(:Object)::Object
[18:29:30] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => Object (https://eval.in/962029)
[18:29:41] havenwood: tomlukeywood: left hand side
[18:29:55] dminuoso: havenwood: ^- this should be an idiom.
[18:30:08] dminuoso: Put that into a few places, and pray some unwary programmer will see it in a few years.
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[18:30:19] Gnut: tomlukeywood: The snipper you pasted is how you acces this fucntion https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/trunk/lib/net/http.rb#L460
[18:30:23] dminuoso: With some luck you will cause them to wonder about "why did he do this?"
[18:30:41] havenwood: >> Object::Object::Object::Object
[18:30:42] ruby[bot]: havenwood: # => Object (https://eval.in/962036)
[18:30:50] Gnut: tomlukeywood: If you scroll up you can see it's in the `HTTP` class and the `HTTP` class is in the `Net` module
[18:31:05] dminuoso: >> Object.const_get(:Object)::Object.const_get(Object)::Object.const_get(:Object)
[18:31:07] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => no implicit conversion of Class into String (TypeError) ...check link for more (https://eval.in/962037)
[18:31:18] dminuoso: >> Object.const_get(:Object)::Object.const_get(:Object)::Object.const_get(:Object)
[18:31:19] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => Object (https://eval.in/962038)
[18:31:22] tomlukeywood: Gnut: that makes sense
[18:31:46] havenwood: Matz is considering switching from :: to ` and deprecating Kernel#`
[18:31:57] havenwood: Breaking news!! ;-)
[18:32:09] dminuoso: Let me guess
[18:32:17] dminuoso: :: Will mean "has type"
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[18:32:21] dminuoso: Or better yet
[18:32:24] dminuoso: : "has type"
[18:32:28] dminuoso: a : Integer
[18:32:30] dminuoso: Would love this/
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[18:33:36] dminuoso: >> class A; B=1; end; class << A; B; end;
[18:33:37] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => uninitialized constant #<Class:A>::B (NameError) ...check link for more (https://eval.in/962070)
[18:33:43] dminuoso: >> class A; B=1; end; class << A; puts Module.nesting end;
[18:33:44] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => #<Class:A> ...check link for more (https://eval.in/962071)
[18:33:49] dminuoso: havenwood: ^- what the?
[18:34:05] dminuoso: Oh wait thats singleton class mm.
[18:34:30] dminuoso: >> class A; class << self; B=1; end; end; puts (class << A; B end)
[18:34:31] ruby[bot]: dminuoso: # => 1 ...check link for more (https://eval.in/962072)
[18:34:47] dminuoso: havenwood: ^- this should be the new way to get constants
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[19:56:12] swein: whats the quick way to add in a value at arr[0], shifting the rest right
[19:56:35] havenwood: swein: #unshift or the newer alias #prepend
[19:57:11] havenwood: >> [1, 2, 3].unshift 0
[19:57:12] ruby[bot]: havenwood: # => [0, 1, 2, 3] (https://eval.in/962200)
[19:57:34] swein: havenwood: appreciate your help
[19:57:42] havenwood: swein: you're welcome
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[19:58:26] swein: doh, I was reading all of ruby-doc, got to uniq and gave up to ask. it was right below
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[20:02:54] dalitom: hey guys, how to compare 2 arrays.... list1 = [1,2,3] and list2 = [3,1,2], how to check if they contain same elements
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[20:06:35] phaul: ACTION thinks using Array structure for representing sets was a bad idea
[20:07:01] Terens: there is a set type
[20:09:55] gizmore: dalitom: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5013880/ruby-compare-2-arrays-for-matches-and-count-the-number-of-match-instances ??
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[20:18:20] dalitom: Thanks guys, I think SET works for me !!!!
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[20:31:04] dminuoso: Interesting.
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[20:35:23] swein: I have an in depth question, lets say I have a hash of keys[1,2,3] and key[1]=[a-z], but key 2 and 3 have only varying letters from the alphabet. What's a good way to insert empty strings "" to provide spacing so when creating CSV rows, it will all line up with columns of A's B's C's,
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[20:36:30] swein: I may need to read class CSV better to see if it provides built in ability to do the searching/scanning and moving columns of like row header values
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[21:02:33] Terens: I am using concurrent ruby. I want to build a simple downloader ( a class?) that would download a specific file via http , and update the download progress.
[21:02:47] Terens: I am looking for a clean way to get the progress
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[21:03:46] gizmore: terens: tricky
[21:04:24] gizmore: terens: involves threading?
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[21:18:45] Terens: gizmore, yes
[21:19:10] swein: tqdm does that
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[21:19:19] swein: thread.tqdm
[21:19:26] swein: anything enumeratable
[21:19:35] swein: enumerable*
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[21:22:51] gizmore: terens: would require you to download at a lowlevel, updating bytes received
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[21:27:39] Terens: I have implemented that already
[21:27:53] Terens: With nethttp
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[21:35:11] gizmore: terens: then maybe use threading
[21:35:22] gizmore: terens: with your http thread, write to "bytes received"
[21:35:33] gizmore: terens: with your main thread, readonly "bytes received"
[21:35:44] gizmore: something like that might work
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[21:58:48] gizmore: nil.map{|niL|nil} # works as nop?
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[22:04:41] phaul: nope ? :D
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[22:08:00] gizmore: nil # works as nop?
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[22:10:23] mozzarella: why do you need noop?
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[22:12:47] gizmore: mozzarella: doing nothin
[22:13:07] mozzarella: gizmore: just do nothing instead
[22:13:22] gizmore: last statement gets returned
[22:13:29] gizmore: you cannot do nothing in ruby maybe
[22:14:19] gizmore: active record sucks?
[22:15:05] mozzarella: give us an example
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[22:18:35] gizmore: mozzarella: of active record sucking?
[22:19:03] gizmore: i only can use very basic datatypes, like string,text,int,decimal
[22:19:38] gizmore: if i want a datatype like "email" i gotta write all the stuff all over again... like varchar(255), charset, the validators, etc
[22:20:00] gizmore: there is no easy way to define new datatypes for activerecord
[22:20:21] gizmore: then, there is no outofthebox cache for activerecord
[22:20:52] gizmore: a find(1) always does a query.... an ootb cache would not ask the db
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[22:21:30] gizmore: ActiveRecord does not feature composed primary keys, like userid INT(11) friendid INT(11)
[22:22:41] gizmore: ActiveRecord is slow as hell?
[22:24:17] havenwood: gizmore: Do you mean it's slow at creating SQL or that it creates slow SQL?
[22:24:28] havenwood: gizmore: There is an out-of-the-box cache with ActiveRecord.
[22:24:47] gizmore: it has significant general overhead for what it does
[22:25:02] havenwood: gizmore: You mean memory?
[22:25:08] gizmore: clock cycles
[22:25:17] havenwood: gizmore: Huh?
[22:25:36] havenwood: gizmore: So ActiveRecord is generating SQL too slow for you? Benchmarks?
[22:25:55] havenwood: gizmore: SQL is SQL.
[22:26:12] gizmore: benchmark is a good idea..... anyway....
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[22:26:31] gizmore: i had to work with rails for 2 or 3 years.... then did a private project for 1 or 2 years
[22:26:43] gizmore: then i decided the redo all on my own from scratch
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[22:26:56] gizmore: and i think i came uo with a nice pattern
[22:27:01] lupine: slow in every possible way :p
[22:27:05] gizmore: an own type system \o/
[22:27:23] gizmore: i did own type system in ruby... but could not teach it to activerecord
[22:27:48] gizmore: i redid all in php.... with type hinting.... and i think i can beat AR in some aspects (not all)
[22:28:21] gizmore: i am looking forward to ruby3?? with type hinting
[22:28:22] havenwood: I had a lovely time with ActiveRecord and Postgres.
[22:28:34] havenwood: Though <3 Sequel.
[22:28:41] gizmore: my stuff doesnt support Postgres.... only mysql/maria
[22:29:01] gizmore: but it offers features like choosing your storage engine
[22:29:23] gizmore: also my cache is .... working
[22:29:38] gizmore: i call it "Single Identity Cache"
[22:29:59] havenwood: gizmore: I think you'll find you can extend ActiveRecord types as you see fit. I don't really agree with any of your criticisms.
[22:30:03] gizmore: User::find(1).object_id == User.find(1).object_id # => true
[22:30:25] havenwood: I'm also puzzled by your penchant for PHP. ;-P
[22:30:37] lupine: activerecord is a poor implementation of the activerecord antipattern
[22:30:42] lupine: there's very little to recommend in it
[22:31:03] gizmore: havenwood: php offers type hinting. which aids and helps your IDE
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[22:31:14] havenwood: lupine: I prefer Sequel but don't really have a problem with ActiveRecord.
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[22:31:27] lupine: you do, you're just institutionalised not to notice :p
[22:31:30] havenwood: Ecto is nice these days.
[22:32:21] havenwood: gizmore: That's not DRY. The thing is what it is. It's not the Ruby way to repeat things for the sake of the machine.
[22:32:48] gizmore: havenwood: you mean type hinting?
[22:32:52] lupine: (but ruby could really do with strong typing)
[22:32:59] havenwood: gizmore: If you like Ruby but would prefer explicit types, consider Crystal. Pretty sure I suggest this every time you come here to talk about PHP type hinting.
[22:33:02] gizmore: ruby will get type hinting soon, afaik
[22:33:07] havenwood: gizmore: No, it won't.
[22:33:10] lupine: (don't use crystal, it's awful)
[22:33:23] gizmore: i heard type hinting is planned for ruby core :(
[22:33:33] lupine: ACTION sets up stall as an oracle, makes money
[22:33:43] havenwood: gizmore: Ruby 3 might include some static type analysis. It won't include anything you type inline in your code. It's a tool that you can use.
[22:34:29] havenwood: gizmore: Think Dialyzer: http://erlang.org/doc/man/dialyzer.html
[22:35:01] havenwood: but no hints!
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[22:35:09] gizmore: when you got like 100k loc, loose typing is hell
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[22:36:37] havenwood: gizmore: ?? I don't think you mean loose typing.
[22:37:12] havenwood: gizmore: Do you mean weakly typed not loosely typed?
[22:37:37] havenwood: gizmore: Anyway, Ruby is strongly typed.
[22:38:11] gizmore: yeah right.... but your IDE cant know the types
[22:38:18] gizmore: means you cannot browse code nicely
[22:38:34] gizmore: and have code completion nicely
[22:39:00] havenwood: gizmore: The Ruby 3 plans will allow for all of that, without you having to change your code.
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[22:39:24] gizmore: havenwood: yeah. i am definately looking forward to a better ruby
[22:39:35] gizmore: the syntax, ecosystem, etc.. all is very nice in ruby
[22:39:41] gizmore: php sucks here and there
[22:39:55] gizmore: like "you cannot throw exceptions in __toString()" wtf
[22:40:16] gizmore: ruby does not suffer from such core problems
[22:40:22] havenwood: gizmore: I don't use an IDE but I'm sure it will be nice.
[22:40:28] gizmore: i hope so :)
[22:40:39] gizmore: ruby is the most elegant language i have learned so far
[22:40:51] gizmore: everything is code =)
[22:41:02] gizmore: i still have to learn python and perl
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[22:41:46] gizmore: on a scale from bash to php... how well does your IDE handle ruby :P
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[22:41:57] havenwood: [T]he third major goal of the Ruby 3 is adding some kind of static typing while keeping the duck typing, so some kind of structure for soft-typing or something like that... It’s just a compile time check. [Y]ou can use that kind of information in IDEs so that the editors can use that data for their code completion..." ~ Matz
[22:42:12] gizmore: looking forward to that
[22:42:26] havenwood: Tooling is important.
[22:42:28] gizmore: might recode my stuff in ruby then
[22:42:47] gizmore: without rails and ActiveRecord
[22:42:49] gizmore: all selfmade
[22:43:06] gizmore: own type system for the win
[22:43:31] gizmore: most types inherit from GDT_String or GDT_Int
[22:43:52] gizmore: they know how to behave in db, forms, cards, lists, html, json
[22:44:40] gizmore: types like GDT_PhoneNumber add some validations or additional features.... all covered by type hinting, making it easy to write code using the types
[22:45:30] gizmore: like GDT_PhoneNumber::make()->countrycodes('+49')
[22:45:56] gizmore: the "countrycodes" function would be suggested by your IDE... because "make()" returns self... "GDT_PhoneNumber" in this case
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[22:48:03] gizmore: havenwood: my best ruby code is in "ricer2" project..... have a look https://github.com/gizmore/ricer2
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[23:04:12] Mike11: hello all :)
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[23:05:29] phaul: hello Mike11
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[23:05:58] Mike11: I am looking for clean (maybe functional-style) way to get line/column position from bytes offset in a file
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[23:06:03] Mike11: a text file*
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[23:11:33] phaul: can we expect more from you Guest64757 or is that it?
[23:13:00] havenwood: Guest64757: What kind of guest are you? Let us help you learn Ruby.
[23:13:20] Guest64757: i dun like the syntax sory
[23:13:45] havenwood: Guest64757: You can change the syntax. Maybe you'd like creating a DSL in Ruby so you have your own mini-language.
[23:15:00] havenwood: Guest64757: There are a variety of nice Ruby parser tools.
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[23:18:21] Guest64757: i want ruby to follow the normal syntax
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[23:22:47] phaul: btw this reminded me how much i liked parslet https://github.com/phaul/repl
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[23:37:21] phaul: parser combinators ftw. :)
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